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Topic: Brick wall on marriage at Headless Cross (Read 1226 times)
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Treelover
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Just to keep updated,
Have just received email from GRO, they are refunding ALL £7 for Mary Ann Hunt's birth cert I ordered. As I could not provide the district, volume or page number. So now we all know you cannot get a certificate if yuo don't know where they were born and only have their birth day.
Now what can I do with £7  ?
Order Mary Annie's sister Edith Jane's birth cert 
Joan
PS Have just ordered birth cert and noticed all the siblings births registered Kings Norton. So played detective and look what I found
Mary Anne Hunt born 2nd quarter Registered Kings Norton, Tamworth district - vol 6b page 455.
Right place, right month but a YEAR later 1878 - looks like her children got it wrong on her death cert and she was only 98. 
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Atkinson - Congleton, Ches
Broomhead - Lancs
Clegg - Rochdale, Lancs
Dodd - Manchester, Lancs
Jones - Lancs, Shropshire, Staffs
Williams - Salford, Lancs & Wales
Kennerley - Congleton, Ches
Lees - Rutland
Redfern - Lancs & Derbyshire
Round - Staffs
Rowley - Congleton, Ches
Sankey - Burtonwood, Lancs
Shuffle(el)bottom - Lincs & Lancs
Watson - Salford, Lancs & Yorks
Walker - Manchester, Lancs
Wright - Manchester
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Valda
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Thankyou for the praise but I really just logically followed the inputs by others on this thread so I think the praise should be shared.
This is the James family of Claverdon’s earlier connection to Manchester.
On the 1901 census the Jones family was living in the Cheetham district of Manchester.
1871 census RG10 4063 folio 12
Hill Street Cheetham Manchester
Thomas James 55 Head Married Gardener Claverdon Warwickshire
Martha James 48 Wife Married Domestic Davenham Cheshire
Elizth James 14 Daughter Manchester Lancashire
W S James 9 Son Manchester Lancashire
Mary James 4 Daughter Manchester Lancashire
Plus boarders
Thomas had been in Lancashire since at least the 1851 census when he appears in Salford and then in Broughton in 1861.
Regards
Valda
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Treelover
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Hi
I know I keep thanking everyone, but I couldn't have done this without you.
Just to confirm that Mary Jane Hunt IS the aunty of Mary Annie. Mary Annie's father William Hunt (1854/5) was the son of Richard Hunt & Caroline and he did have a sister Mary Jane (1869/70)
Haven't found them on 1871 yet.
But if anyone wants to check
1881 for Mary Jane + Parents RG11 2945 F. 20 P 13
1861 for William + Parents RG9 2218 F 4 Pg 2
Now all I have to do is try and find Richard & Carolines marriage 
Joan
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Atkinson - Congleton, Ches
Broomhead - Lancs
Clegg - Rochdale, Lancs
Dodd - Manchester, Lancs
Jones - Lancs, Shropshire, Staffs
Williams - Salford, Lancs & Wales
Kennerley - Congleton, Ches
Lees - Rutland
Redfern - Lancs & Derbyshire
Round - Staffs
Rowley - Congleton, Ches
Sankey - Burtonwood, Lancs
Shuffle(el)bottom - Lincs & Lancs
Watson - Salford, Lancs & Yorks
Walker - Manchester, Lancs
Wright - Manchester
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Valda
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1871 census RG10 3191 folio 13
Tanworth Warwickshire
Richard Hunt 45 Head Married Besom maker Tanworth Warwickshire
Caroline Hunt 45 Wife Married Beoley Worcestershire
John Hunt 18 Son Ag lab Tanworth Warwickshire
George Hunt 16 Son Gen Servt Beoley Worcestershire
Charles Hunt 13 Son Solihull Warwickshire
Eliza Hunt 10 Daughter Solihull Warwickshire
Joseph Hunt 9 Son Tanworth Warwickshire
Thomas Hunt 7 Son Tanworth Warwickshire
Emily Hunt 5 Daughter Tanworth Warwickshire
Mary J Hunt 2 Daughter Tanworth Warwickshire
Richard Hunt 7 months Son Tanworth Warwickshire
Besom maker = Broom maker, usually of birch twigs
1871 census RG10 3077 folio 9
Alder Hanger? Beoley Worcestershire
William Hunt 16 Tanworth, Warwickshire, General Servant
Regards
Valda
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Valda
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1851 census HO107 2071 folio 362
Tanworth Lane Tanworth Warwickshire
Richard Hunt 26 Head Married Besom maker Tanworth Warwickshire
Caroline Hunt 24 Wife Married Solihull Warwickshire
Elizabeth Hunt 8 Months Daughter Tanworth Warwickshire
Possible marriage
RICHARD HUNT
CAROLINE HUNT
Marriage: 23 OCT 1848 Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwick
ELIZABETH HUNT
Christening: 29 DEC 1850 Solihull, Warwick
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
JOHN HUNT
Christening: 16 JAN 1853 Solihull, Warwick
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
GEORGE HUNT
Christening: 02 JUL 1854 Wythall, Worcester
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
WILLIAM HUNT
Christening: 29 JUN 1856 Wythall, Worcester
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
CHARLES HUNT
Christening: 02 MAY 1858 Wythall, Worcester
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
ELIZA HUNT Christening: 22 JAN 1860 Wythall, Worcester
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
JOSEPH HUNT
Christening: 02 FEB 1862 Wythall, Worcester
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
THOMAS HUNT
Christening: 21 FEB 1864 Tanworth, Warwick
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
EMILY HUNT
Christening: 01 APR 1866 Tanworth, Warwick
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
MARY JANE HUNT
Christening: 19 JUL 1868 Tanworth, Warwick
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
MARY JANE HUNT
Christening: 19 JUL 1868 Tanworth, Warwick
Father: RICHARD HUNT
Mother: CAROLINE
Regards
Valda
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Treelover
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Hello all,
Update on my newly found Hunt family. Got Edith Jane's birth cert today (yes it arrived FIVE days earlier than despatch date) 
Valda, you were absolutley spot on, mother is Mary Ann JAMES. I am now going to spend an lovely hour or so with a glass of wine and the James ancestors.
Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas & a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
Joan
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Atkinson - Congleton, Ches
Broomhead - Lancs
Clegg - Rochdale, Lancs
Dodd - Manchester, Lancs
Jones - Lancs, Shropshire, Staffs
Williams - Salford, Lancs & Wales
Kennerley - Congleton, Ches
Lees - Rutland
Redfern - Lancs & Derbyshire
Round - Staffs
Rowley - Congleton, Ches
Sankey - Burtonwood, Lancs
Shuffle(el)bottom - Lincs & Lancs
Watson - Salford, Lancs & Yorks
Walker - Manchester, Lancs
Wright - Manchester
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avm228
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Brilliant! Glad we were able to help you get on the right track with this family.
Happy Christmas to you too
Anna
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Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)
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Treelover
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CHEERS Anna
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Atkinson - Congleton, Ches
Broomhead - Lancs
Clegg - Rochdale, Lancs
Dodd - Manchester, Lancs
Jones - Lancs, Shropshire, Staffs
Williams - Salford, Lancs & Wales
Kennerley - Congleton, Ches
Lees - Rutland
Redfern - Lancs & Derbyshire
Round - Staffs
Rowley - Congleton, Ches
Sankey - Burtonwood, Lancs
Shuffle(el)bottom - Lincs & Lancs
Watson - Salford, Lancs & Yorks
Walker - Manchester, Lancs
Wright - Manchester
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Treelover
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Hi,
I appreciate we have all slept a lot since I started this thread. Just to let you all know, I have everntually got round to getting William Hunt and Mary James marriage certificate.
And her father is------ WILLIAM JAMES - Labourer. Which throws me right back to square one. I was so sure we had it all sewn up back in December. I cannot find a William James with a daughter Mary James born 1855.  UNLESS she put her GRANDFATHERS name on her marriage cert instead of her father's,, but why do that
PS
At least the Hunts were right
Joan
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Atkinson - Congleton, Ches
Broomhead - Lancs
Clegg - Rochdale, Lancs
Dodd - Manchester, Lancs
Jones - Lancs, Shropshire, Staffs
Williams - Salford, Lancs & Wales
Kennerley - Congleton, Ches
Lees - Rutland
Redfern - Lancs & Derbyshire
Round - Staffs
Rowley - Congleton, Ches
Sankey - Burtonwood, Lancs
Shuffle(el)bottom - Lincs & Lancs
Watson - Salford, Lancs & Yorks
Walker - Manchester, Lancs
Wright - Manchester
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Valda
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But you alreay know she was very likely to be illegitimate.
UNLESS she put her GRANDFATHERS name on her marriage cert instead of her father's,, but why do that
If she was illegitimate nothing she put about her father on her marriage certificate can be trusted. Illegitimate people if they could legitimised themselves on marriage - wouldn't you considering the stigma attached to illegitimacy at the time?
There were no checks in the system until the second half of the C20th. Illegitmate people on their marriage certificates either gave their father their own surname with the rest of the details correct, or gave the details of a close male relative, or made it all up if they could. If they couldn't i.e. their details were known by whoever was marrying them then the space was left blank. Ocassionally their real father's name was placed on the certificate but like a blank space that would be to admit their illegitimacy.
I have the marriage certificates of one illegitimate man who married four times. His father's details on all four certificates are different - different name and occupation each time, except the one time he married where he was known when the details were left blank. On his first attempt he gave the surname of his step father as his father's first name - Miles.
A marriage certificate is the most unreliable record there is since people on their marriage tend to fabricate/massage information. They change their age, they improve their father's occupation, they don't marry in their full names, they move for three weeks to gain residency so they don't have to pay the banns in two different churches, they change the name of their father, they change their status e.g. bachelor when they are a widower or indeed already married...
I cannot find a William James with a daughter Mary James born 1855.
Information already given you
'1871 census RG10 3209 folio 58
Turnpike Wootten Wawen
William Sears 54 Head Married Ag lab Claverdon Warwickshire
Elizabeth Sears 52 Wife Married Claverdon Warwickshire
Mary James 15 Niece Manchester Lancashire
MARY ELIZABETH JAMES
Christening: 22 JUN 1856 Claverdon, Warwick
Mother: HANNAH JAMES '
and a risky birth certificate which could be someone else
'Birth registration
March quarter 1856
Mary Elizabeth James
Manchester
volume 8d page 311'
Regards
Valda
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Treelover
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Hi Valda,
Thanks for your reply. I know you helped me so much when I first posted this thread. When we looked at William Sears and his wife we discovered that his wife was a James before she married, and the rest of it all seemed to fall into place. When that was all traced, her father SHOULD have been John James. I must admit I'm wondering if her uncle (William Sears) gave her away, as she could have been living with them for some time. Maybe she said William and they automatically put the "James" as his surname. Either way, I don't want to risk putting the family we originally found as hers. I guess that line stops right here
Thanks
Joan
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Atkinson - Congleton, Ches
Broomhead - Lancs
Clegg - Rochdale, Lancs
Dodd - Manchester, Lancs
Jones - Lancs, Shropshire, Staffs
Williams - Salford, Lancs & Wales
Kennerley - Congleton, Ches
Lees - Rutland
Redfern - Lancs & Derbyshire
Round - Staffs
Rowley - Congleton, Ches
Sankey - Burtonwood, Lancs
Shuffle(el)bottom - Lincs & Lancs
Watson - Salford, Lancs & Yorks
Walker - Manchester, Lancs
Wright - Manchester
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Treelover
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Possible birth registration for 'Nellie'
Births Mar 1898
JONES Ellen Aston 6d 426
1871 census RG10 3209 folio 58
Turnpike Wootten Wawen
William Sears 54 Head Married Ag lab Claverdon Warwickshire
Elizabeth Sears 52 Wife Married Claverdon Warwickshire
Mary James 15 Niece Manchester Lancashire
WILLIAM SEARS
ELIZABETH JAMES
Marriage: 13 OCT 1841 Claverdon, Warwick
ELIZTH. JAMES
Christening: 05 MAY 1823 Claverdon, Warwick
WILLM. JAMES
Mother: ELIZTH.
Elizabeth had other siblings but her sister Hannah is the one you will be most interested in as there is a possible baptism in Claverdon of a daughter of hers called Mary who may be the Mary of the 1871 census staying with her aunt Elizabeth.
HANNAH JAMES
Christening: 30 MAY 1829 Claverdon, Warwick
Father: WILLM. JAMES
Mother: ELIZTH.
MARY ELIZABETH JAMES
Christening: 22 JUN 1856 Claverdon, Warwick
Mother: HANNAH JAMES
Claverdon registers in Stratford upon Avon registration district but this looks as if it is a possible birth registration for Mary Elizabeth.
Birth registration
March quarter 1856
Mary Elizabeth James
Manchester
volume 8d page 311
On marriage people don't always use their second name.
1861 census RG9 2241 folio 26
Chadshunt Warwickshire
Hannah James 30 Unmarried Servant Dairymaid Claverdon, Warwickshire
I can't see Mary.
Regards
Valda
Valda
I have just found this. The family are on Ancestry as William LEYERS instead of Sears. But living with them is MARY SEARS, neice born Manchester.
RG9; Piece: 2232; Folio: 56; Page: 5 Wootton Wawen
Its got to be the right family. It looks like she IS brought up by William, as I said it could account for naming William on her marriage cert. Ohh Errr - undecided.
Joan
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Atkinson - Congleton, Ches
Broomhead - Lancs
Clegg - Rochdale, Lancs
Dodd - Manchester, Lancs
Jones - Lancs, Shropshire, Staffs
Williams - Salford, Lancs & Wales
Kennerley - Congleton, Ches
Lees - Rutland
Redfern - Lancs & Derbyshire
Round - Staffs
Rowley - Congleton, Ches
Sankey - Burtonwood, Lancs
Shuffle(el)bottom - Lincs & Lancs
Watson - Salford, Lancs & Yorks
Walker - Manchester, Lancs
Wright - Manchester
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