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Topic: Tinker = Romany?? (Read 1590 times)
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An65
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 398
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Now Lee is a very well known Romany name. The Lee family is huge - and two books were written about them by a man by the name of Terence Lee. I believe they are out of print now, and I have no idea where he is these days, Im afraid. But you could try your local library?
You might like to check these photos for any family similarities:
http://sca.lib.liv.ac.uk/collections/gypsy/photoind.htm#Appleby
Scroll down to find photos of Lees and Coopers
Ithal Lee, Julia Lee, and Oliver Lee.
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 398
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Oh I should have given you the names of the books -
The Lee Family Tree, Vol I and Vol II.
Terence Lee also wrote the Smith Gypsy Genealogies which ties in heavily with the Lee family.
Best of Luck with your searching!
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hollow
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 39
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi, Thank you for your help. Will try to see if I can get those books from our local library or if they can obtain it for me.
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rebekahm28
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 61
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I believe in the old ways, a true Romany would be dark. Tinkers were/are Irish, and dont have the history or cultural heritage of Romany. And they speak Cant, wheras we speak Romanes.
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Beswick, Roberts, Sladen, Astell, England, Mander, Osborne, Krilovs, Elliott, Brooks, Wilkins, Markham, Raven, Mycock, Johnson, Woodrow, Perry, Overton, Rollings, Seeney, Durber, Kirkbright, Charley, Cleaver, Wilkes, Cotton, Olds, Waine, Evans, Gilbert, Grisold, Price, Wheelhouse.
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I forget
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 48
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Hi there,
I hope you don't mind me giving my 2p worth on the 'Tinker/Romany' question.
IMHO the way the travelling people were recorded as 'Hawkers, Tinkers' etc, bears no relation to what sort of Travelling people they were. The only thing it tells you is that they were travellers.
As has been said, the Romany peoples did tend to marry within their 'own kind' so the clues may lay within your ancestors names, but also if you can speak to older members of the family and find out whether there were any Romany speakers. Also their darker appearance may be a clue.
On looking at the photos of my mums side the Harris's were all quite short in stature, dark haired and brown eyed. Where-as my grandfather has blue eyes and was always referred to as a 'showman' not a gypsy (though as a 'general dealer or hawker' in official documents), so I suspect there may be Irish or similar on that side, but I don't know.
My mother always said that the travelling communities had a 'class' system almost like house dwellers and that Romanies were the 'top'. And true gypsies spoke Romany.
However, she never lived on the road, so I don't know how true what she said was. It was certainly what she was told and experienced when she visied relatives living in vans on various sites.
Good luck with your search
cindy
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LANCASHIRE: Briscoe, Taylor, Hamilton, Cutts, Mousdell, Dixon, Fairclough, Dingle, Pennington, Ingham, Martin, Pinnington, Haselden, Molyneux
CHESHIRE/DENBEIGHSHIRE: Briscoe, Gibson, Tudor
SCOTLAND: Hunt, Murray, Docherty, Malley, Cameron, Colman, Middleton, Mason, Drummond, Gourdale, Fraser
Traveller/East Anglia and beyond!: Harris, Sherratt, Thorpe
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rebekahm28
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 61
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Thats true Cindy, and that class system still applies today. I know some people may not agree with it, but most Romany folki have quiet lives and bother no-one; so when a lot of trouble has been caused by other 'gypsies', Romany folk hate getting the blame. The gorja's (non gypsies) and especially the newspapers lump all travellers together.
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Beswick, Roberts, Sladen, Astell, England, Mander, Osborne, Krilovs, Elliott, Brooks, Wilkins, Markham, Raven, Mycock, Johnson, Woodrow, Perry, Overton, Rollings, Seeney, Durber, Kirkbright, Charley, Cleaver, Wilkes, Cotton, Olds, Waine, Evans, Gilbert, Grisold, Price, Wheelhouse.
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ROMANYGENES
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 25
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thought folks would like to know as they have been mentioned here that the Books by Terence Lee the Smith and Lee Genealogies are now after 12 years once more available to buy direct from Mr.T.Lee from my website *
http://romanygenes.webeden.co.uk
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aa1webb
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 147
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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evening to all,
thought i to would add my bit!!!!
yes indeed, terence lee's books are on sale again through romany genes ( a fantastic site, full of great info, photos and quick wit with fellow travellers/romany ancestors/descendants.) i have just ordered the books and they are really informative. they have been a real help to me as i have alot of mixed romany's in my tree.
as to the ''class system'', my nan always said there was a difference between ''real romany's'' and the irish travellers. all my family spoke ''the lingo'' as my old nan would call it but through the generations we have spoke it less and less. although us girlies always use it when we are out and we dont want others to hear...not that we know that much. not like our ancestors.
in our family we have a mixture, so to speak. most dark haired, dark eyed and quite a few with ''curly''. while the others are blonde and blue eyed but alot are short, no point saying stout or anything else, they are short. plain and simple. !! LOL. 
and i agree with the families marrying their own kind, most of my ancestors were cousins. seems odd but was the norm for all of them. 
amanda
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buckley
webb
boswell (shadrack line)
pearse
lee
smith (inc epping forest)
heron
bibby
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honey-roma88
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 270
Grandad Cecil
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I believe in the old ways, a true Romany would be dark. Tinkers were/are Irish, and dont have the history or cultural heritage of Romany. And they speak Cant, wheras we speak Romanes.
My Romany ancestors were predominantly VERY dark. This is my gg grandmother's sister Charlotte Putland (with her non-Romani husband Johnny Holland) who is just a bit more than half Romany, all her siblings were just as dark.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001.jpg
My mum and dad got their blood tested recently and my mother was 1/6th pure Indian, 30something percent south-eastern european, 40something percent northern european, and a little native American (which is pretty obvious when you look at certain family members but how it got there is beyond me since we are English - although those particular ancestors are from port areas). My dad was 40something percent southeastern european, 30something percent northern european and a 10th Indian. Both were about 10% Middle Eastern.
My mum has a skin condition which they say is from south-eastern european blood, she also has a ridge along the back of her skull (as does my father's mother) which is called the Anatolian ridge I think which also suggest Turkish blood.
My father's mother nicknamed Blackie as a baby
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-1.jpg
My great, great grandmother
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00002.jpg
My sister
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00004.jpg
My great, great grandfather
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-3.jpg
My great grandfather
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-2.jpg
My great, great grandfather
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00011.jpg
I think the wide, flat cheekbones are another feature of Romany-blooded folk. Bizarrely a lot of my Romany ancestors had no eyebrows...I think that is just a family quirk though.
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Romany/Traveller:
BLACKMAN, BUCKLAND, BURGESS, DIX, DOBSON, FOLEY, GRANT/PARKER, HUNT, JONES, MUNDAY/MONDAY, MORGAN, NOYELL, ORCHARD, PAGE, REED, VINCENT
Jewish:
BRAHAM, FROST, LYONS
French:
HONEYSETT, LEVETT PETTIT
English:
BELSHAW, BETTSWORTH, CANE, COVENTRY, DOBSON, FRY, NURSE, POOK, PUTLAND, PUTT, SMITH, SNELGROVE, TEE, TUDGAY, VENUS/VENESS
Irish:
ANDERSON, KILLOUGH, MACCORMACK, MACROBERTS, MORTON, MOORE, WALLACE
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honey-roma88
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 270
Grandad Cecil
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hello honey-roma 88 how lucky are you to have all those wonderful photos.  they all had eyebrows!!!lol. but you can see how lovely and dark their hair/eyes are. i bet they had beautiful olive coloured skin.? a.
Ha! yes most of them did...Jane in my avatar photo didn't and neither did Cecil. Julia Putland definitely had olive skin (my gg grandmother) and my grandmother always said her hair was almost blue-black although you can't see that in photos.
It looks like that have tried to draw Cecil some eyebrows in this one.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/honeysett88/00001-4.jpg
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Romany/Traveller:
BLACKMAN, BUCKLAND, BURGESS, DIX, DOBSON, FOLEY, GRANT/PARKER, HUNT, JONES, MUNDAY/MONDAY, MORGAN, NOYELL, ORCHARD, PAGE, REED, VINCENT
Jewish:
BRAHAM, FROST, LYONS
French:
HONEYSETT, LEVETT PETTIT
English:
BELSHAW, BETTSWORTH, CANE, COVENTRY, DOBSON, FRY, NURSE, POOK, PUTLAND, PUTT, SMITH, SNELGROVE, TEE, TUDGAY, VENUS/VENESS
Irish:
ANDERSON, KILLOUGH, MACCORMACK, MACROBERTS, MORTON, MOORE, WALLACE
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