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Topic: Scotts of Annan Dumfriesshire (Read 587 times)
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Pughy
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 404
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am new to the Scottish Census etc, I am interested in a Thomas Scott b abt 1833 Annan
I have found him with his family on the 1841 Census Parish Annan , ED: 1; year 1841
I have also found him on the 1851 Census Parish Annan; ED: 1A; Line; 9; Year 1851.
On the 1841 Census the Father of thomas is not recorded but that is understandable as his Wife Marion/ Maria is recorded as a Wife of Mer S I presume that is a Merchant Seaman, because on the 1851 Census she is recorded as a Sailors Widow.
I do know that the fathers Christian name is William which I obtained from Thomas Scotts Marriage Certificate.
How do I obtain a Death Certificate for William who obviously died between 1841 & 1851.
Also if I obtain a Birth Certificate for Thomas or one of his siblings would it give me Marion/Maria Surname.
I have put Maria/ Marion not sure which one it is Maria in 1851 Marion in 1841.
Any Help At All Would be greatly Appreciated
Regards
Pughy
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AMBLY
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Hi Pughy 
Civil registration began in Scotland in 1855 (England began much earlier, from Sep Qtr 1837) - so prior to 1855 you won't get certificates - rather parish records of Baptism, Marriage and Burial. It all depends on the official recording these events as to how much information is on the parish records - but the rule is not to expect too much! The mother's maiden name held much more 'significance' in Scotland however, so you are likely to find a woman's maiden name in Baptism's of her children and on her burial records, MI's etc.
On the other hand Scottish certs from 1855 onward, have provision to contain much more information than English ones. The mother's name for example is contained in the marriage records, as well as the father's, and both parents are named on death records - 1855 especially contained a lot of information but some of it was dropped after that, as it was too difficult to sustain.
Have a good look about on Scotland's people website - there is a lot of information on it, more that my potted overview It's free to register and search.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/welcome.aspx
I take it that your Thomas was married in England, hence only his father's name William is on the marriage record. The next question would be then: Did the whole family move to England? If any sibling remained and married in Scotland from 1855 onward, their marriage certs should provide the maiden name of Marion/Maria - and may provide more information on the father, even if he ewas deceased. If Marion/Maria herself died in Scotland from 1855 on, her death certificate should contain the names of her parents, and depending on when she died, the name of her late husband.
Now am I going to chuck a spanner in the works........... ?
You say Thomas' father was named WIlliam?
Per a previous topic, your Thomas in the English Census gives his Place of birth as Annan in at least 2 Census. One of his children is called Maria, another is named John....and they also had a Mary A.
OK - Combining IGI and Census and a website or 2 - I am in no doubt that the Census Marion/Maria of 1841 and 1851 that you mention - She was Maria DALGLEISH and her husband was John SCOTT ..................
Cheers
AMBLY
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« Last Edit: Saturday 10 November 07 01:53 GMT (UK) by AMBLY »
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AMBLY
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These are the 2 Census you mention
1841: Port Street, Annan, Dumfries
Ref: Parish 812/ ED 1
Marion SCOTT 30, Wife Of Mer S - (b abt 1811)
Mary SCOTT 13 (1828)
Walter SCOTT 10 (1831)
Thomas SCOTT 8 (1833)
Francis SCOTT 5 (1836)
George SCOTT 3 (1838)
ALL born Dumfries
1851: Newbie Barns, Annan, Dumfries
Ref: Parish 1812
Head: Maria SCOTT 44, Sailors Widow, b Dornock, Dumfsh, (b abt 1807)
Son: John SCOTT 27, Mariner, b Annan (1824)
Dau: Mary SCOTT 23, Mariners Wife (1828)
Thomas SCOTT 18, Mariner (1833)
Son: Francis SCOTT 15, b Annan (1836)
Son: George SCOTT 12, b Annan (1839)
Grandau: Johina SCOTT 20 ??, b Annan (1831???)
The 1851: looks like her son John married a woman same name and age as his sister, Mary -I would say the "Dau" Mary in 1851 is really her daughter in law? And the Grandaughter is probably John & Mary's, and is aged 20 or 2 days or months, not years ? The orginal image can be downloaded off Scotlands People to check.
IGI: - Submitted records, admittedly but have an 'air' about them - they appear pretty accurate!
BIRTHS/CHRISTENINGS
Mary Irving SCOTT b 15 Apr 1828, chr 25 May 1828 Annan
Walter SCOTT b 1 Jan 1826, chr 1 Jan 1826 Annan (probably died before 15 Apr 1830)
Walter SCOTT - b 15 Apr 1830, chr 26 Jun 1830 Annan
Thomas SCOTT - b 19 Mar 1833, chr 17 Apr 1833 Annan
Francis SCOTT b 5 Aug 1835, chr 2 Oct 1835 Annan
George SCOTT - b 21 Dec 1837, chr 18 Feb or 18 Jan 1838 Annan
MARRIAGE:
John SCOTT and Maria DAGLISH - married 5 Feb 1824 Annan
I can't find a son John SCOTT christened./born abt 1824 to these parents, but that he is there in 1851 makes sense of his father being named John - though he 'should' be named after his paternal grandfather, if they stuck to naming patterns. Like his father, he may have been on a boat in 1841. What doesn't make sense, is there is no child named William - which I would pretty much expect, after his father - if the father was "William".
I can also find, in the 1841 Census - a John SCOTT age 45, a mariner, in a houshold of Walter SCOTT in Dornock. (FreeCEN)
I wonder if this is the the family' father?
WEBSITE
What cinches all this is this website: (on Rootschat domain too- can't work out how to contact the owner - there is a chance the owner of the site is a Rootschatter AND is related to the Annan Scotts......
Annan Baptisms
http://fallon.rootschat.net/annanbap.html
http://fallon.rootschat.net/index.html
Mary Irving lawful daughter of John Scott mariner and Maria Dalgleish born 13th April bap 25th May 1828
Walter lawful son of John Scott mariner Annan and Maria Dalgleish born 15th April bap 26th June 1830
Thomas lawful son of John Scott and Maria Dalgleish born 19th Mar bap 17th April 1833
Francis lawful son of John Scott mariner and Maria Dalgleish born 5th Aug bap 2nd Oct 1835.
George lawful son of John Scott mariner Annan and Maria Dalgleish born 21st Dec 1837 bap 18th Feb 1838.
John SCOTT, the husband of Maria DALGLEISH is very possibly the son of John SCOTT (1777 - 1843) annd Mary IRVING (1781-1847) of Annan.
But then you have your Thomas SCOTT born abt 1833 in Annan. with his marriage cert stating his father is named William (did it give an occupation for William?). I also wondered if you had found the birth of their daughter Mary A, in Scotland abt 1859?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Pughy
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 404
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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HI Ambly
It looks like my euphoria of yesterday is short lived, I had been struggling to find Thomas Scott & family on the English Censuses I had found him on the 1881 Census as follows
RG11 3601 Folio 37 Page 68
Thomas Scott 47 [1834] Sailor Scotland
Anna Scott 42 [1839] Carlisle
Anna Scott 13 [1868] Liverpool
John Scott 11 [1870]
Josephine Scott 9 [1872] Liverpool
Thomas Scott 19 [1862] Carlisle Sailor
But I had not managed to find them anywhere else until yesterday I thought my luck had changed
I found a Thomas Scott & Ann Scott with the correct ages, also the correct places, of birth but the plus was that Thomas had "ANNAN"Scotland were before it had only been Scotland, living in Widness Lancs as follows.
RG13 3514 Folio 113 Page 47
Thomas Scott 68 [1833] Annan Scotland
Ann Scott 66 [1835] Carlisle Cumberland
It was by using the Annan Scotland that I found him in the 1841 & 1851 Census.
It was then I thought that everything fell into place i,e. The fact that Thomas was a sailor & that his father was a Sailor.
I have been doing this research for a Friend and I have just been in contact, It looks like it is the wrong family because on the Marriage Certificate it has William Deceased Station Master Carlisle Railway. The only thing that I think might have happened, on the Marriage Certificate there is only one Father listed,It could be the William is the father of his wife Ann who was born in Carlisle it's a possibility.
To check this out we are going to contact the Railway because if he was Station Master there should be records, The wifes surname is Straney & we have had no luck finding anything abt her from the censuses. If it turns out that the William is William Straney & not William Scott, then I will get back in touch with you because all the information you found is great, Sorry to mess you about but thank's for all your time.
Thanks Again Regards
Pughy
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AMBLY
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Hi Pughy
Messing me about !?? Not on your nelly! All part of the fun :-))
Nothing is ever straight forward is it ! It certainley seemed like the 1841 & 1851 were a perfect fit! I think it's extremely fortunate that you do have on 2 census that Thomas was born in Annan, and that they appear to have had a child Mary A born in Scotland abt 1859 (BTW : the 1871 Census - I do believe that child is a girl named Mary A, I can just make out the tail of the y on the end, even though it has listed her as a "son". And I believe her POB which is very illegible is in fact , a hastily written "Scotland").
On face value, the marriage cert might indicate Ann STRANEY was illigitimate - though your theory about the "William SCOTT" on the marriage cert may be Ann's rather than Thomas' father - is certainley valid.
In any case, the general consensus from Census is that your:
Thomas SCOTT was born abt 1833/1834 Annan Scotland
Wife Ann was born abt 1835/1836 Carlisle Cumberland. The marriage you have states her name is STRANEY.
What was the address' of the couple on the marriage, their ages, and the names of the witness? And what was Thomas' occupation? Do know Ann was STRANEY because her maiden name is so listed on a birth cert of the child from whom your friend is descended?
Someone's father on the marriage cert is supposedly a railiway conductor - that makes sense of the 1861 Census, where Thomas is listed as a Railway Goods Guard - whereas in the other he is a Mariner/Sailor. Perhaps he did change his occupation for a time.....
From your other topic:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,204886.0.html
It seems all the Census 1861 to 1901 found for your Thomas & Ann do tie up, largely by the names of the children (no thanks to one census indexed as LEVA!! and another where they appear as surname BELL!! Might want to keep that BELL in the background though, it seems such a stretch from SCOTT) In 1871/1881 they were in Liverpool area (same street both times) , in Everton in 1891, and Widnes 1901.
Now, sorry for bursting a bubble yesterday  but today I might be able to blow you another.....
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
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Back to the supposed 1861 Census for your Thomas & Anne:--
1861 Shaddongate, Caldewgate, Carlisle, Cumberland
RG9/3920 Folio 39 Page 5
Thos. Scott, Head, Mar, 27, Railway goods Guard, Scotland
Ann Scott, Wife, Mar, 25, House Wife, Cumberland Carlisle
Mary Scott, Daur, U, 2, Scotland
Maria Scott, Daur, U, 4 or 6 months, Cumberland Carlisle
Andrew Fleming, Lodger, U, 26, Railway Goods Guard, Scotland
There is more to this 1861 - I believe the house they were in was 3 headed - ie: 3 seperate families were in the one dwelling. This is indicated by the / marks seperating them. and the // marks at the start of the house, and // again at the end, after the 3rd family.
Your SCOTT's are first listed.
Then comes:
/
Head: John LOLLAR 23, Dyer, b Carlisle Cumberland
Wife: Jane LOLLAR 27, Killmister? Cimberland
Dau: Mary Ann LOLLAR 2, Carlisle
/
Head: Ann THOMPSON 35, Widow, Cap Sealer B---?, b Carlisle
Son: William THOMPSON 14, Cooper B----?, b Carlsile
//
It is the LOLLAR couple who are the focus....
In the IGI is a birth:
Mary Ann SCOTT , b 9 Nov 1858 in Central District, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Parents: Thomas SCOTT and Ann LOLLAR
No other Scotland births found to this couple.
Now, it should be said - the 1861 Thomas & Ann and their children certainley seem to be the same couple who are in Liverpool in 1871 and 1881 at Cranmer Street, though in 1871 there is no daughter named Maria - in 1871, it jumps from Mary A age 12 b Scotland to Thomas age 9 b Carlisle . Possibly little Maria 's death is the 1863 one in Carlisle Though there also one in 1864 Liverpool.
This next bit.........only works if the marriage cert you have is the wrong one!!
I think...... John LOLLAR 1861 was the brother of 1861 Ann SCOTT . Census also show that John LOLLAR and wife Jane, ended up in Lancashire - in Everton. (in 1891 he is an Inspector of Police!)
Now to 1851 for Ann of 1861... I think this is her, with a brother named John.....
1851: Caldewgate Trinity, City of Carlisle, Cumberland
Ref: HO107 / Piece 2430 / Folio 452 / Pg 8
Address: 22 Shaddengate
Head: Mary LALER 49, widow, Domestic Duties, b Carlisle
Dau: Ellen LALER 20, unm, General Servant, b Carlisle
Dau: Ann LALER 17, General Servant, b Carlisle
Son: John LALER 14, Servant, b Carlisle
Lodger: Charles CAMPLE 30, mar, Railway Guard, b Ayrshire Scotland
Lodger: Alexander NICKHOLSON 28, marr, Railway Guard, b Inverness Scotland
Lodger: William LAW 25, unm, Railway Servant, b Ayrshire Booth Scotland
I can't locate them in the 1841 (yet!).
But here's the thing!
Scotlands People Index Search reveals:
A Thomas SCOTT and an Ann LOLLER married in Annan, Dumfries in 1858!
You can pay for and dowload this certificate online.
If you are 100% sure the SCOTT/STRANEY marriage is correct - you'll burst my bubble but in any case I am going to lay a bet that the SCOTT/LOLLER marriage will show Thomas was the son of John SCOTT and Maria DALGLEISH and Ann was the daughter of James LOLLER and Mary BELL (check the IGI for the last bit ). The BELL bit - now that could explain your SCOTTS, being listed as BELL in 1891!!
It's very possible, Thomas was working on the railway for a time, met Ann LOLLER in Carlisle (the main Rail line Dumfries to Carlisle - been on it meself once ) - he may have even lodged in the LOLLER household (ie: like the 1851 LALER lodgers and took her back to Scotland to marry, perhaps because her mother was also deceased by 1858...?
As for Ann STRANEY - I believe her birth is on the IGI too, 1836 Carlisle to a mother named Mary STRANEY and no father listed. THIS makes sense of that marriage you have - where she has no father listed, becasue she was illigitimate.
Phew! I'm having trouble keeping my head straight!
CHeers
AMBLY
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Pughy
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Posts: 404
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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HI Ambly
Ever thought of becoming a DETECTIVE you are fantastic. It will take some time for me to digest all that you have found but I think that you are correct especially with finding the Birth of a Ann Straney with no Father.I had found the Bell & Leva families so you confirmed my Findings that they were Scott wrongly transcribed.
The Detail On the Marriage Certificate for Thomas Scott & Ann Straney is as follows
Thomas Scott age 23yrs Water Street Carlisle Occupation Cotton Spinner
Ann Straney age 29? Robert Street Carlisle Occupation Cotton Picker.
We only know of Ann Straneys surname because of the Marriage Certificate.
I have Downloaded The Marriage of Thomas Scott & Ann Loller 1858
You were correct in your assumptions the parents John Scott & Maria Daglish
I am having trouble deciphering some of it I would like your oppinion.
Is it possible to send you a copy of the Certificate if so how do I do it.
I am convinced that you are correct in your theory that these are the correct couple.
Regards
Pughy
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Pughy
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HI Ambly
It's me again I have down loaded the Census Images 1851 & 1841 Annan for Marion/ Maria Scott
If the view of these would be of any help to you then I could also send copies of these to you.
I also downloaded the 1841 with John Scott living with Walter Scott Dornock.
I tried clicking on the the two ANNAN BAPTISM SITES which you sent me but they are not responding.
My friend is over the moon with the information you have found, but I have told her to carry out the research on William Scott Station Master on the Marriage Cert anyhow just to prove it
.Many Thank's Again
Pughy
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AMBLY
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Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Pughy
Aw Shucks <blush> thanks for the vote of confidence - always the way though, I always seem to have trouble detectiving my own families
This is the wording of the marriage certificate:
1858 Mariages in the Burgh of Annan Landward (part of) in the County of Dumfries
On the twenty second day
of February 1858.
the Annan Manse (after Banns)
Marriage was solemnized be
tween us according
to the forms of the
Established Church
of Scotland
~~~~~~~~------
Signatures of Parties, age & Residence, Rank Trade, Profession & Conditon, & Relationship of parties (if any)::
(signed) Thomas SCOTT age 25, Shaddingate, Carlise. [--?] Cumberland, Seaman Merchant Service, (Bachelor)
(signed) Ann LOLLER age 22, Shaddingate, Carlise. [--?] Cumberland, Domestic Servant, (Spinster)
~~~~~~~~------
Parents of Groom:
John SCOTT, Sea-man Coasting? Service (deceased)
and Maria SCOTT maiden name DALGLIESH
Parents of Bride:
James LOLLER Weaver (deceased)
and Mary LOLLER maiden name IRVING
~~~~~~~~-----
Witness:
John SCOTT and
?Hellen LOLER?
~~~~~~~~-----
Can't quite make out the Minister's name (and it's not the same Minister as for the 2nd Marriage on the page) ....Jos. C , H?.y.ilan.r? min, of Annan.
Registered by Matthew LORIMER, Registrar on 22 February 1858.
One thing to note with the writing is, the way the lower case r's are written and the d's which have a curved arm arching over leftward rather than a vertical stroke.
I also think the capital H and W are probably quite similar. I think the second witness is definitely "Hellen", though I first thought is was "Walter" and the suname is more unsure - I think it is LOLER with the second middle L missed out! This may be wish ful thinking - as I think it is probably her sister named as Ellen on the 1851....
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
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by AMBLY: lay a bet that the SCOTT/LOLLER marriage will show Thomas was the son of John SCOTT and Maria DALGLEISH and Ann was the daughter of James LOLLER and Mary BELL
So the marriage shows Ann LOLLER's mother was maiden name was IRVING.....
(also noting it looks like Thomas SCOTT married a woman whose mother's maiden name was the same as his Grandmother's - that's if, of course, Thomas' father John was the son of John SCOTT and Mary IRVING)
It seems the marriage on the IGI I alluded to as being Ann LOLLER's parents was wrong - ie: James LOLLAR and Mary BELL married 5 Feb 1821 Carlisle.
But - I don't think so, somehow - I think IRVING and BELL will all tie up, perhaps Ann's mother was married twice, or her mother was, or she was herself illigitimate, hence having two surnames.....
Now, I just want to ask and make sure - the SCOTT family you now have Census for - 1841 and 1851 Dumfries, 1861 Carlisle, 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 Lancashire (they are, I am sure - one family....same Thomas SCOTT throughout), marriage cert aside - you do know these to be correct, because your friend is descended from one of their identifiable children?
Because----1) Ann STRANEY is quite some years older than the Ann SCOTT in those Census. 2) Ann STRANEY's husband was the same age as 'your' Thomas, but was a Cotton Spinner or Weaver - I think it too much of a stretch to believe he was a Cotton Spinner in 1858 when he married Ann STRANEY - yet in all Census bar one where he worked on the Railway, he was a Mariner.
As a side note, the Ann STRANEY of the marriage, is also 10 years older than that christening in 1836 of (probably) an illigitimate child- but it is possible she was Christened as a older child age age 7 to 10 years and not as a baby, perhaps even Christened then because her mother married, or died, around 1836...?
And....I believe Thomas SCOTT and Ann STRANEY were in Botchergate Carlisle 1861 to 1881 at least, that they played about with their ages a bit though Ann was always older and born abt 1827-1829. I also think her Thomas SCOTT is on the 1851 Census is Carlisle with a father named William SCOTT. Railway Clerk at Brisco Station, Carlisle.
If short (, well sort of short!) IF the Liverpool SCOTTS are yours, I am 100% confident that you may completely discount the SCOTT/STRANEY marriage and...... in that case, I have more to add for the SCOTT/LOLLER lot!
Cheers
AMBLY
PS: The Annan websites - Rootschat pops up a new Window when URL links embedded in messages are clicked, so perhaps check to make sure you have Pop-ups allowed for Rootchat?
And thanks to Liverpool Annie , apparently those sites are owned by one of RC own, Boongie Pam (who is one of the Moderators too).
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« Last Edit: Monday 12 November 07 08:18 GMT (UK) by AMBLY »
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Pughy
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 404
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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HI Ambly
Thank you for the breakdown of the Marriage Certificate. My friends family are descended from a Daughter of THOMAS SCOTT b abt 1862 Carlisle the son of Thomas Scott b1833 Annan Scotland & Ann Lollar.
I will try those Rootchats sites again, I have only been using a Computer for a short time 18 Mths so still learning.
Regards
Pughy
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Pughy
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HI Ambly
I meant to give you the family of Thomas Scott b 1862 Carlisle
Census Ref No RG13/3475 Folio 13 Page 18.
The daughter the family descends from was born after 1901.
Regards
Pughy
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Pughy
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HI Ambly
Before I give all the information to my friend you mentioned in your last message that if I was sure that we could discount the Scott Straney Marriage, that you had some more information about the Scott Loller Lot,
Thanking You again because without your good self I would never have got as far as we have with the search.
Kind Regards
Pughy
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Boongie Pam
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Lilian Palmer 1923 to 1987
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Hiya,
The Fallon site is mine. I have a mess of Scott's from Annan and Dornoch. The MI's and records extracts may not be working at the mo - I'll try to find out why. When I get home tonight I'll re-read the thread to see if I can help.
Pam
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All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright
~~~~~~~~~~~
Dumfrieshire: Fallen, Fallon, Carruthers, Scott, Farish, Aitchison, Green, Ryecroft, Thomson, Stewart
Midlothian: Linn/d, Aitken, Martin
North Wales: Robins(on), Hughes, Parry, Jones
Cumberland: Lowther, Young, Steward, Miller
Somerset: Palmer, Cork, Greedy, Clothier
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Pughy
RootsChat Senior
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HI Pam
Thank's very much I did this research for a friend but if you can help with more information it would be very much appreciated.
Regards
Piggy
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