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Topic: CORNWELL from Bottisham (Read 1124 times)
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CAROLYNDERRY
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Posts: 35
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi
thanks for your reply. i think your cornwells well may be related as i have come across these names before. i havent found a direct link as yet but will keep you informed if i do
carolyn
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CAROLYNDERRY
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Posts: 35
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hi
i now have isaac and rebekahs marriage certificate but doesnt really help very much.
isaacs father was Wm, presumably William occupation-dead
rebekahs father also Wm also dead
witnesses were samuel cornwell possibly a brother?
and ann osler
i cant find a samuel who also has a father called william or a death for william that may fit
has anyone any further suggestions where i go from here?
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bedfordshire boy
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Bear in mind that it wasn't unknown for someone illegitimate to make up a father's name for appearances' sake
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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wdurham
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There is one Samuel, b in Bottisham, in the Cambs FHS Baptisms:
1818 CORNWELL Samuel H. - Bottisham Lode s. of John & Elizabeth, Bottisham
About the same age as the mystery Isaac, so perhaps a cousin?
I have found a William and Mary producing children in Bottisham at about the right time (Robert 1813, Charlotte 1815 and Elizabeth) 1816. There is also a William and Sarah, but a bit late (William 1833, Sarah B 1836). William and Anne, but they were much earlier around 1801, and seemed to favour the job lot baptism. And William and Alice, (Ann 1818, John 1820, Eliza 1822, Josiah 1825).
There just is not an Isaac (apart from the Wilbraham boy who we have counted out for good reasons) baptised in Cambs and listed on the Cambs FHS baptisms. Let alone an Isaac son of William!
I can't find a burial for a likely William, either.
So perhaps non-conformist or Catholic?
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Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
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CAROLYNDERRY
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Posts: 35
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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thanks for all your continued support and help
this may be a total stab in the dark but i tried looking up ann osler also cited as a witness on the marriage certificate and found an isaac cornwall ostler on the family search website . he was baptised en masse in 1822--correct timing His father was william ostler and mother mary(no surname). on familysearch the ostler was bracketed-any idea what that means??
am i barking up the wrong tree
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wdurham
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Hi, Carolyn -
The bracketing is just a means of distinguishing surnames, as far as I am aware. Some conventions use CAPS, others use forward slashes. Parts of the IGI use the angle brackets as in Horningsea.
I have been poking around over this as well - it's very like a situation I have in my own family, where we have all the evidence for the existence and life of a William Armstrong, but have never found a baptism. Also, I am still wondering about the Louis/Lewis connection with my Kent/Hampshire Cornhills, so have a definite interest in this problem!
I also looked up Ann Osler - though I didn't find Isaac Cornwall Ostler like you. However, the link with Horningsea might make sense of this rather confusing entry from Cambs Banns:
16 Jun 1839 Groom Isaac CORNWALL condition widr residence otp Bride Rebecca PIPER condition sp residence of Hornsey, Parish Bottisham, CAM
Now we know that the name of Isaac's wife was not Piper but Papworth. You have the marriage cert, and if more proof were needed, Papworth was used as the middle name for one of the sons. But this entry is for Banns to be read in Bottisham, presumably with info given to the vicar verbally, whilst the marriage took place in the bride's parish, so it could be an error. Oddly, the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah does not appear on the IGI, nor is it in the Cambs Marriage Index which I have on CD - the Banns entry from 1839 in Bottisham is there, but not the actual marriage. Where does the marriage cert actually say it took place? And what's the exact marriage date - do these banns refer to the Cornwell/Papworth marriage?
I did piece together a chronology from the various info in the Cambs Burials, Banns, Marriages and Baptisms, plus census info and the IGI, as follows:
Marriages: (Cambs Marriages - FFHS at family history Online, also on IGI and Cambs Marriage Index)
9 Feb 1836
Groom Isaac CORNWELL, otp
Bride Sarah (x) LOUGHTS (or LOFTS), otp
by banns
Witnesses John (x) WHITE, Susannah LOFTS, Ann ARBER,Parish Bottisham, CAM
Baptism: (Cambs Baptisms - FFHS at family history Online - also on the IGI see below)
27 Aug 1838
William Lofts CORNWELL son of Isaac & Sarah, Lode, Father Occupation lab
Notes PB (private baptism???) Parish Bottisham
Burial: (NBI - FFHS at family history Online)
Sarah CORNWELL Date 14 Sep 1838 Aged 24 Place Bottisham Description Holy Trinity
(Looks like she died of the birth?)
Banns: (Cambs Banns - FFHS at family history Online, and Cambs Marriage Index)
16 Jun 1839
Groom Isaac CORNWALL condition widr residence otp
Bride Rebecca PIPER condition sp residence of Hornsey, Parish Bottisham, CAM
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1851 Census:
Lode Street, Bottisham
Isaac 34, b Bottisham
Rebecca 36, b Westwick
william 12
Lewis 9
Ann 4
Robert 1
All children b Bottisham
IGI: children of Isaac and Sarah
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Re: your Isaac Cornwall Ostler:
There is an entry for an Isaac Osler b 1818 in Horningsea, wife Louisa, and two children, Henry and Lettice in 1851. In 1852 the family emigrated to Australia - perhaps part of the Victoria goldrush?
See:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/PRF/individual_record.asp?recid=310922315&lds=2®ion=-1®ionfriendly=&frompage=99
and then I found this on the Victoria Public Record Office Site:
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RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
There are two marriages for Isaac Osler in Chesterton District (which covers Horningsea) one in 1843 possibly to Martha Read, and one in 1846 possibly to Louisa Bradwell - which ties up with the Pedigree Resource File and the Persian passenger list.
If this is Isaac Cornwall Ostler, then that would rule him out, as Isaac and Rebecca are alive and kicking in Bottisham in 1851 and thereafter, and not taking part in the Victoria Gold Rush!
So no closer to who Isaac was. All I can think is that Isaac was not his baptismal name OR he wasn't baptised OR he was illegitimate and baptised with his mother's surname. Even then, all the Isaacs in the Bottisham batches on the IGI seem to have fathers....
I also did some stuff on Williams, see the next post...
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« Last Edit: Monday 07 April 08 14:50 BST (UK) by copyright_editor »
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Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
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wdurham
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...continued from previous post!
On Isaac's marriage cert, he says his father is William, deceased. As I said, I did find some Williams producing children in the right period in Bottisham. But none of them had an Isaac.
Here are the results of my labours:
Wives and Children of William Cornwells in Bottisham contemporary with Isaac's birth year of 1816-1818:
Unknown Female:
CORNWELL William 1812 Bastardy - Father - Poor Law Papers (Entry on the CAMDEX archive database)
26 May 1812
Groom William CORNWALL otp
Bride Mary (x) BENSTEAD otp
by banns
Witnesses George (x) BICHENO, Samuel STUBBING, John BENSTEAD, James (x) HART Notes witness 5 Elizabeth FULLER (x) Parish Bottisham, CAM
Possible children found for the above marriage:
ROBERT CORNWALL - s/o William Cornwall & Mary Benstead
Christening: 12 SEP 1813 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
CHARLOTTE CORNELL d/o William Cornell & Mary
Gender: Female Christening: 12 MAR 1815 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
ELIZABETH CORNELL - d/o William Cornell & Mary
Gender: Female Christening: 16 JUN 1816 Bottisham, Cambridge, England
Marriage:
3 Dec 1816
Groom William (x) CORNWELL otp
Bride Alice HUNT otp
by banns
Witnesses John RAYMENT, Mary FITCH, Parish Bottisham, CAM
Possible children found for the above marriage:
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
However, William and Alice were still both alive in 1841, (and still producing children!) whereas Isaac said his father William was dead in 1939. Alice is a widow by 1851.
Another William is here:
Married 21 Oct 1846
Groom William CORNWELL aged full condition widr occupation farmer residence otp
Bride Ruth (x) GOODWIN aged full condition wid residence otp
by banns
Groom father Holmes – occupation farmer
Bride father William CHAMBERLAIN - occupation lab
Witnesses William WALLING, Lucy WHALLING, Parish Bottisham, CAM
In 1841 the above william is 52, previous wife Sarah aged 49, two children, William 8 and Sarah 5
In 1851 he is 62, with two children William 17 and Sarah 14. New wife Ruth is also 62, b Swavesey.
Again, not dead at the time of Isaac's marriage.
The only other William baptising kids in Bottisham was a bit too early: he and his wife Ann baptised a raft of children in 1801 and 1802 - John, Mary A, Philip, William and Sarah. Though these appear on the Cambs Baptisms Index, they aren't in the IGI batches? Strange. But he does seem to have been dead by 1839! Or at least, isn't in the 1841 census.
So i shall now go off and pursue Louis/Lewis, having gone as far as I can with Isaac and William.
Hope you can get something out of all of this....
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« Last Edit: Monday 07 April 08 14:53 BST (UK) by copyright_editor »
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Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
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CAROLYNDERRY
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 35
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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phew
what can i say but thankyou very very much for your hard work
where do you get all the details from?
i hadn't even considered the "cormak" name in 1841 so didn't have that info.
on isaac and rebekah marriage cert. it has been left blank but the reistrar has put in a note saying they would expect it to say 'parish of horningsea in the county of cambridge'
marriage took place on 24/06/1839
i did have the info re marriage to sarah lofts/loughts and her death at the same time that william was born but you have given me some further details that i didn't have,so thanks for that
good luck with your louis/lewis
carolyn
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wdurham
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No problem, Carolyn - most enjoyable!
But bear in mind it's all circumstantial, dug up from the various online sources available - you'd need to do some pretty heavy checking to find the proper evidence.
With the census info, I have found to my cost that Cornhill/Cornwell is usually very badly mistranscribed, so mostly I search, where the first name is not too common, just on first names, spouse first names, parents first names etc plus an approx date of birth and a birthplace or birth county. You get a lot of entries, but usually the one you want is in there- as with Carmak!
It does look as if those Banns from 14 Jun 1839 are the right ones, even though they have the girl's surname wrong. The marriage was just a few days later, and was in Horningsea - misspelled by the Bottisham vicar as Hornsey. I did check - there isn't a Hornsey in Cambs!
Sadly, even after all that, we still don't know who Isaac was....other than the son of a William, perhaps. As David has pointed out, what's on the certificate is only what the registrar was told, and need not be the truth!
Good hunting. 8-)
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Willson & Pell in Faversham, Egerton, Folkestone in Kent
Cornhill in Kent, Devon and Wokingham, Berks
Cadmans & Kings in Isleham, Cambs
Swan, Gregory, Smith & Mingay in the Burrough Green/Westley area of Cambs
Armstrong & Chandler in Bedford
Abbott/Abbit in Witham, Essex
Davies/Davis in Islington & Hackney
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CAROLYNDERRY
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Posts: 35
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi mig
i have been researching other cornwells in bottisham to try and establish a link with my cornwells. i have a phillip who married an ann but i have ann ayres. i do have an ann arber but she married a william. i may be wrong but just need to check it out. how positive are you re your info?
look forward to hearing from you soon
carolyn
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CAROLYNDERRY
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Posts: 35
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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no probs. this is really sending me around in circles too.
i have been trying to source who may have been my isaac father so have tried to reserch all cornwells in the bottisham area. william and anne arber also had a son william who could be a contender for this but i'm not sure who he married.
i have also narrowed it down to a possible edmund who married elizabeth ?maiden name who had a william baptised on 15/07/1798-since their children were baptised at different times i'm assuming this was more or less when he was born
do you have any further info re above cornwells?
i am really guessing at a lot of this,trying to prove it is difficult
carolyn
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Aniseed
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Carolyn,
First off, I've got a Mary Anne Cornwell as a byline on my tree who is the daughter of William Cornwell and Ann Arber who married a William Orslar on 30 December 1816 in Bottisham. The IGI for this is batch number M134102. Could this be the Ann Osler who was a witness on your Isaac and Rebecca's marriage certificate, or possibly her daughter? If your Isaac was the son of William Cornwell and Ann Arber that would make Mary Ann Orsler Isaac's sister. Unfortunately, though, I haven't made a note of where I got the information from that the Mary Ann Cornwell who married William Orslar was the daughter of William Cornwell and Ann Arber. I didn't find it myself and can't vouch for its accuracy, so you should check that yourself if you decide to follow it up.
Now to explain how I'm related to the Cornwells. I'm descended from Holmes Cornwell (born 1763 or 1764) who was William Cornwell's (who married Ann Arber) older brother. Their parents were, I believe, William Cornwell (born about 1735 in Bottisham) and Elizabeth Holmes. There's a message on RootsWeb from a lady who thinks she may have found a wedding between these two people at St Vigor's church in Fulbourn. Holmes is a name that crops up again and again in the Bottisham Cornwells, so I think there must have been a Cornwell/Holmes marriage at some point.
I must emphasise that none of this research is mine...I only got back to 1837 and then had to rely on other trees that I found on the internet. I mention it to you so you can bear it in mind in your search. I reckon you'll need good luck and lots of dedication - there are bucketloads of Cornwells in Bottisham!
Best wishes
Sophie
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DALE - Monkwearmouth & Camberwell
CHIPCHASE - Stockton on Tees & Shadwell
STEWARD - Great Yarmouth & Deptford
WOODHEAD - Deptford
WILKINSON (Watermen & Lightermen) - Surrey & Deptford
EAST (Watermen & Lightermen) - Lambeth & Deptford
CORNWELL, PLUCK, AYRES & HINER - Bottisham, Cambridgeshire
BARTHOLOMEW, GORDON & RINGER - Wakes Colne, Essex
TAYLOR, WHITE & GOODCHILD - Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
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CAROLYNDERRY
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Posts: 35
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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i have done quite a lot of research myself and have found some definite relationships of the people you mentioned. i can pass on these to you if you want them
carolyn
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