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Topic: Catherine Cabble - Lymington (Read 359 times)
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JamesDMcBust
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Catherine b. early 1800 in Lymington married a Benjamin Cabble b. Keinton Mandeville, Somerset early 1800. 1841 census lists Catherine's first child, Emily(e) b. 1829 as being born in Lymington also, therefore general assumption Emily is not Benjamin's child. Found parish record for the marriage in KM about 1831. All these events pre-date the 1837 official recording so it's proving very difficult to trace.
I'd like to find out Catherine's maiden name. and also Emily's natural father.
PS Catherine is sometimes referred to as Caroline on some census records just to confuse matters!
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Little Nell
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I canot find any Emily with a mother named Catherine or Caroline baptised in the anglican registers of Lymington three years either side of 1829. 
Really need Catherine's name on marriage to get anywhere. The marriage that you mention - this is from the IGI? It's a submitted record with no supporting evidence. Treat this sort of entry with extreme caution.
However, I have found this: a marriage licence bond for Benjamin Cabble, bachelor, age at least 21, of Somerton, Somerset, to marry Catherine Ireland age also at least 21, spinster of Sherborne, Dorset. The marriage details are given as 3 November 1828 in Sherborne.
There is a parish Limington in Somerset, not far from Somerton.
I suspect this may be the couple you seek.
Nell
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Little Nell
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1841 census sees Benjamin and Catherine in Barton St David - all children and their parents are recorded as being born in the county.
Nell
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JamesDMcBust
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Nell for checking out my query so promptly.
I too had wondered whether the Lymington stated on the census form referred to the village between Ilchester and Yeovil, which would have made more sense geographically than Hampshire. Emily's place of birth is constantly referred to as Hampshire although Catherine's census records are inconsistent as follows.
1841
Catherine b. 1801 born Somerset, residing Barton St David, Somerset
Benjamin b. 1806 born Somerset, residing - ditto -
Emily b. 1829 born Somerset, residing - ditto -
1851
Caroline! b. 1802 born Lemington, Hampshire, residing Keinton Mandeville
Benjamin b. 1801 born Keinton, residing Keinton
Emeli b. 1829 born Lemington, Hampshire, residing Keinton Mandeville and with baby listed as William (Cabble) - no husband mentioned
1861
No listing of Catherine (Caroline) anywhere in the British Isles
Benjamin b. 1806 born KM, residing KM
Emily b. 1829 born nk Hampshire, residing KM with children William, Frank & Thomas - still no husband - all called Cabbles
1871
Catherine b. 1801 born Milford Haven, Hampshire, residing KM
Benjamin b. 1805 born KM, residing KM.
Emily by this time has married a James Vickery and living at Drayton and has 4 Cabble children, plus one Vickery child with her.
1881
Both Catherine & Benjamin have died (both 1879) and are buried in KM Parish churchyard.
Apart from question of who fathered Emily's first 4 children (perhaps can be tackled separately later on), I cannot understand why, if Emily's natural father was Benjamin, there appears to be no birth record of her.
Yes - the marriage record of Catherine & Benjamin Cabble in abt. 1831 at KM was an IGI record with no supporting evidence but their second child arrived in 1832 which fitted.
Your suggestion that Benjamin married a Catherine Ireland is certainly food for thought. I found no birth record of her with ancestry but there certainly were some "Ireland" folk living in/around Ilchester at start of 1800's which could have been her family. Certainly the census information on Catherine is inconclusive - 1841 born Som, 1851 Hampshire, 1861 - apparently not with Benjamin at all, 1871 born Hampshire.
I am still not completely convinced that I should slot "Ireland" on my family tree and would value others' thoughts.
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ojs_uk
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just something else to add to your confusion - Ireland was a common name in Milford (on-Sea), the neighbouring village to Lymington. I know this as I came across many as I was going through the parish records once.
This could explain why the 1871 census mentions Milford Haven, probably by mistake.
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Valda
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Not that it helps any with Catherine's origins, but this looks to be her on the 1861 census with the wrong first name and her age a bit adrift. Charlotte her daughter-in-law was the wife of her son John (born circa 1834 with his wife in the village on the 1871 census).
1861 census RG9 1628 folio 129
Comb Hill Keinton Mandeville
Charlotte Cabble Head Married 28 Barton St David
Mary Cabble Mother-in-law Married 50 Nurse Hampshire
Perhaps visiting with her daughter-in-law because Charlotte was pregnant though if so the child doesn't appear with their parents on the 1871 census. The marriage took place in 1859.
Emily's baptism
27th December 1829
Milford Hampshire
Emily Ellen
parents Benjamin and Kitty
Kitty was a pet form of 'Katherine'/Catherine.
Marriages Sep 1867
CABBLE Emily Ellen Langport 5c 633
VICERY James Langport 5c 633
There is no coverage of Milford or Lymington parish registers for the period you are interested in on the IGI (very patchy coverage for Hampshire with only about 43% of parish registers up to 1812 having some coverage - Somerset is much worse, only about 3% - so more chance of not finding records on the IGI for these counties than finding them). I have no access to either of these two Hampshire parishes' baptismal records pre 1813 but there are indeed plenty of 'Ireland' baptisms in Milford post 1812.
This website helps you navigate the IGI and see easily which parishes have coverage and for what period.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/
Regards
Valda
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Little Nell
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Now that's what I call a result!
Checking Hampshire marriages, unless there was some dreadful handwriting involved, at the moment I can't see Benjamin and Kitty/Catherine/Caroline or whoever, marrying in Hampshire. Anyone else got better eyes than I seem to have at the moment?
Nell
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Daisypetal
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Hi,
I expect you already have these birth references for the younger children, but just in case 
Birth
Ann CABBELL Mar Q 1838 Langport v.10 p.408
Benjamin Warwick CABBLE Mar Q 1840 Langport v.10 p.449
Regards
Daisy
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Valda
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The transcription of the Sherborne parish register at
http://www.dorset-opc.com/SherborneFiles/SherborneMarriages1810-1819.htm
reads
Beanjamin CRABB of Somerton Somerset & Catherine IRELAND otp married 10-Nov 1828
'of this parish' equals only of that parish at the time of the granting of the licence. You would need to check the licence itself - if it has survived and the marriage register also to see whether Crabb is an error in the register or in the transription or is actually the correct surname. Somerton (according to Google maps) would appear to the largest place adjacent to Keinton Mandeville and since a large proportion of working class girls had to work away from home as servants - an economic necessity, there is no reason to suppose Catherine Ireland of Sherborne couldn't originally have come from Milton/Lymington and that the couple didn't immdediately, after their marriage return to that area before resettling in Keinton Mandeville. The Sherborne marriage from Little Nell looks by far the most likely at this moment but really does need to be checked against actual records, though any birth certificate of a child born to the couple after civil registration would confirm whether Catherine's maiden name was actually 'Ireland' or not.
Baptisms St Mary Keinton Mandeville
05 Aug 1834
John Cabble
Father Benjamin
Mother Catherine
Father Occupation Yeoman
17 Jan 1836
Lucy Cabble
Father Benjamin
Mother Catherine
Father Occupation Farmer
25 Feb 1838
Ann Cabble
Father Benjamin
Mother Catharine
Father Farmer
04 Mar 1840
Benjamin Warwick Cabble
Father Benjamin
Mother Catherine
Father Farmer
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
Parish register coverage
http://www.freereg.org.uk/parishes/som/k.shtml#1
Which just leaves Mary Elizabeth Cabble's baptism circa 1832 missing. On the 1841 and 1851 censuses her birthplace is given as Somerset which in 1851 is specified as Keinton Mandeville. On the 1861 census after she has married Henry Palmer and moved to Drayton Somerset, she still gives Keinton Somerset as her place of birth as she does on later censuses where her name is recorded as Elizabeth - Mary E on the 1861 census.
Regards
Valda
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JamesDMcBust
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for everyone's interest.
Valda - You may be right about finding Catherine (or Mary?) living with her daughter in law, however, my records show that Charlotte's mother just happened to be called Mary (born 1796 in Somerset) so it could easily be her. John Cabble, Charlotte's husband, is found living back with his father, Benjamin in this census so at least that might be explained if his wife was poorly/pregnant.
Other info I have:
John Cabble married Charlotte Corp (listed Carp in 1841 census!!) on 21 August 1859.
A Harry George Cabble was buried 12th March 1863 in Keinton Mandeville Church, aged 1 year 11 month - means born approx April 1861. So perhaps she lost the first baby.
John & Charlotte did have at least one child, George A, born in KM in 1864.
Daisypetal - Benjamin Warwick Cabble was my gggrandfather.
So back to 1861 entry, it's a toss up between either Mary Cabble (mother) born Som, or Catherine (middle name Mary?) Cabble (mother-in-law) born Hampshire. If it was Catherine, it explains her apparent disappearance.
I suppose it's not possible to get a birth record from the baptism details of Emily Ellen, is it? I am currently trying to contact someone who descends from a son of Emily Ellen, so see if she has anything concrete about Emily.
All the census records show Benjamin to be born in KM so the question of how he & someone from Hampshire gets together has to be answered. One explanation is that Catherine could have been in service nr KM. But then there's Emily Ellen. Even if Emily is his child, why would she have been born in Hampshire. I've checked the census for Cabbles in Hampshire, and yes there are one or two in/around Portsea area so that's another idea I had.
Well I'll throw this one back to you all for another chew!
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JamesDMcBust
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The penny has suddenly dropped.
I know it wouldn't solve the "Emily Ellen" dilemma, but I could order the birth certificate of Benjamin Warwick to find out more about Catherine. I know its 1840 Jan-Mar Langport vol 10, 449.
But before I shell out, would it definitely show what her maiden name was before she married Benjamin senior?
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Valda
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A census entry only tells you where a person was that night not where they living, so it doesn't tell you John was living with his parents. The 1861 census entry clearly states mother-in-law. If it was actually Charlotte's own mother then her age is even further out (given as 58 on the 1851 census - so if it was her at least 18 years out on her age and you might expect Charlotte as Head of household to be more secure about her mother's age than Catherine's) and 'Mary' also has the wrong county of birth - strange therefore of all the counties she should be given Hampshire!
Being recorded as Mary on a census doesn't actually indicate you have a middle name of Mary, it just indicates that either the enumerator was given the wrong information in the first place or very tiredly when copying the household returns (written perhaps not all that well) into his enumeration book made an error. All the household schedules for all censuses up to 1911 were destroyed. Only the census enumerators' copies remain and as there is no other evidence that Catherine had another name the probability is more likely that this was an error, as was her age.
Charlotte's father's name was Samuel.
I think Charlotte's maiden name was actually Carp not Corp (Corp on the 1851 census, Carp on the 1841 census)
Deaths Mar 1854
Carpe Mary Langport 5c 324
Deaths Dec 1856
Carpe Samuel Langport 5c 298
Marriages Sep 1859
Cabble John Langport 5c 709
Carp Charlotte Langport 5c 709
All the more reason for Charlotte if she was pregnant to have her mother-in-law with her (acting as a nurse) if her own mother was by 1861 dead as certainly her father was.
I have already stated (in my earlier post) it was likely at the time of her marriage that Catherine possibly surname Ireland was in service and therefore not surprising that she would be working in a relatively close by town such as Sherborne Dorset. It doesn't mean that pre the date she couldn't have been in service in Somerset or that the pair met in the market town of Sherborne - not all that far away from Keinton Mandeville and farmer labourers tend to frequent market towns as that is where 'hiring fairs' are held or their employers send them to sell produce or buy tools etc.
Marrying into a family can mean moving close to them, either the wife's parents or your own as they tend to have somewhere you can lodge cheaply and they can help find you work. On the 1841 census there were 44 Irelands living in Milford so it would appear Catherine had substantial potential family members in the area. Emily's baptism in Milford would seem to strongly support Catherine was either born in Lymington and grew up in Milford or vice versa.
Civil registration began on 1st July 1837. Birth certificates give the mother's maiden name - just as they do today. I did suggest in my previous post purchasing one of the later children's birth certificates would confirm Catherine's maiden name.
Regards
Valda
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JamesDMcBust
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I did send for the birth certificate of Benjamin Warwick Cabble - It arrived today and confirmed, as you had suggested, that his mother's maiden name was indeed "Ireland". Well done all who helped. 
I had a quick look via ancestry.com at who might be related and there certainly are many "Irelands" in and around Milford at that time. Obviously the next thing is to try and find out who she might be related to. Is it possible without travelling to Hampshire to find a baptism for her which might give her parents' names?
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Little Nell
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I've looked at various sites which contain parish register transcriptions, but have only found extracts from both Lymington and Milford. I didn't see any Ireland baptisms in those extracts.
The IGI does not seem to be of any assistance.
The fact that Emily was baptised in Milford rather than Sherbourne where the pair married suggests that perhaps Catherine's parents still lived there.
Post 1813 (the closest I can get to) there is a couple Charles and Mary baptising children up to 1820. Theoretically, they could be Catherine's parents.
Another couple named William & Mary - also children up to 1820. Both couples seem to have married before 1813.
Only suggestions.
Nell
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