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Topic: Missing 1861 Census (Read 800 times)
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Mackiwi
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Posts: 221
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I am having trouble finding 3 rellies in the 1861 Census any help appreciated.
Catherine Campbell b. Coll about 1832
Malcom McIntyre . Skipness 1830
Grace McIntyre widow of Angus McIntyre last known Rockfield 1851 then 1871 missing the one in between. I don't know date of birth or marriage for Grace nee Duncan.
Mackiwi 
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MCINTYRE, TAYLOR, DUNCAN SKIPNESS & NTH KNAPDALE.
CAMPBELL,MCKINNON,MCDONALD ,ISLE OF COLL.
MCINTYRE,CAMPBELL, ISLE OF BUTE
PERRIN, STEPHENS,PAYNE,FEAKINS,PREECE,DUDSON, ENGLAND, AUSTRALIA,NEW ZEALAND
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Mackiwi
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Posts: 221
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Hi Joe, 
Nice thought but, my Malcolm didn't marry until 1863 his address being North Bute which I tracked down to Gortans Farm on the Isle of Bute. That's where they married.
His bride Catherine Campbell was at Balimore or Ballimore. I haven't been able to find out how they could have met and married so thought the old tried and true census route might help.
Very strange how they are both so difficult to track down for the same census as I have found them in all the others back to 1841.
As for Grace, well she disappeared the same year but popped up again on her own in 1871 and was still alone when she died.
Mackiwi
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MCINTYRE, TAYLOR, DUNCAN SKIPNESS & NTH KNAPDALE.
CAMPBELL,MCKINNON,MCDONALD ,ISLE OF COLL.
MCINTYRE,CAMPBELL, ISLE OF BUTE
PERRIN, STEPHENS,PAYNE,FEAKINS,PREECE,DUDSON, ENGLAND, AUSTRALIA,NEW ZEALAND
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Mackiwi
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Posts: 221
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Thank you but ...... Grace was at Rockfield age 65 in 1851 and at Rockfield age 85 in 1871 according to SP census images died in 1873.
There is a site with Skipness farms must check out that name.
Mackiwi
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MCINTYRE, TAYLOR, DUNCAN SKIPNESS & NTH KNAPDALE.
CAMPBELL,MCKINNON,MCDONALD ,ISLE OF COLL.
MCINTYRE,CAMPBELL, ISLE OF BUTE
PERRIN, STEPHENS,PAYNE,FEAKINS,PREECE,DUDSON, ENGLAND, AUSTRALIA,NEW ZEALAND
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AMBLY
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Posts: 3247
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Mackiwi
It was not at all uncommon for Scottish women to sometimes use their maiden names, particulary after they were widowed (but also when husband was still alive and they were living together) . Also often seen, if a Scottish woman was married or widowed but/and lived with members of her birth family - she would often be referred to by her maiden name on Census.
So...could this be your Grace....?
1861: Skipness, Argyllshire
Ref: Parish 531/2, ED 3 , pg 3
Address: Portagaban
Head: Walter DUNCAN 55, Pauper, b SKipness
Brother: ALexander DUNCAN 82, Pauper, b Skipness
Sister: Grace DUNCAN 55, Housekeeper, b Skipness
A look at the original image would hopefully say whether or not this Grace DUNCAN was a widow? Though of course, that could be widow DUNCAN nee ------? .
However, in 1851 I didn't see this Grace DUNCAN to fit in Saddell or Skipness, nor in 1841.
In 1851:
Saddell and Skipness
Ref: Parish 531, ED 5, pg 2
Address: Sunadale
Head: ALex'r DUNCAN 75, Pauper formerly fisherman, b Skipness
Brother: Walter DUNCAN 50, Pauper formerly fisherman, b Skipness
Brother: Robert DUNCAN 42, Boat Builder, b Skipness
Sister: Catherine DUNCAN 38, Indoor Work, b Skipness
In 1841, Alexander 40, Walter 35, Robert 31 and Catherine 20 - are in Skipness, at Rockfield (while your Grace and Angus are at Oragaig, Skipness).
Ages are a bit wild in places, but I would say same family of DUNCANs throughout.
Cheers 
AMBLY
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MonicaLesl
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Posts: 5680
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Great find Ambly
This is an actual extract from the OPRs which could be Grace's
GRIZEL DUNCAN Christening: 15 FEB 1788 Saddell And Skipness, Argyll, Scotland
Parents: PETTER DUNCAN and MARGET MACMICHELL
Only the girls are showing on IGI unfortunately:
4. JEAN DUNCAN Christening: 08 JAN 1786 Saddell And Skipness, Argyll, Scotland
2. MARY DUNCAN Christening: 16 JUL 1800 Saddell And Skipness, Argyll, Scotland
3. CATHARINE DUNCAN Christening: 06 MAR 1803 Saddell And Skipness, Argyll, Scotland
Mackiwi, if you check on Scotlands People's entries for the OPRs, you will hopefully find corresponding entries for the sons. I imagen you have Grace's parents' names from her 1873 death cert which will let you verify the above parents.
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
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...and actual extract from the OPRs for Angus and Grace's marriage:
GRISAL DUNCAN Marriages: Spouse: ANGUS MCINTYER
Marriage: 16 JUL 1831 Saddell And Skipness, Argyll, Scotland
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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AMBLY
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Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Monica
It all does sound good
I just saw on another post : when Grace died - her death cert named her parents as
Peter DUNCAN (fisherman) and Jean DUNCAN (M.S. Carmichael)
Cheers
AMBLY
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Mackiwi
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Hi everyone,
Wow where do I start.
Hi Monica It all does sound good I just saw on another post : when Grace died - her death cert named her parents as Peter DUNCAN (fisherman) and Jean DUNCAN (M.S. Carmichael) Cheers AMBLY
Is Grizel Gaelic for Grace ?
GRIZEL DUNCAN Christening: 15 FEB 1788 Saddell And Skipness, Argyll, Scotland
Parents: PETTER DUNCAN and MARGET MACMICHELL
This looks like 2 brothers and a sister.
1861: Skipness, Argyllshire
Ref: Parish 531/2, ED 3 , pg 3
Address: Portagaban
Head: Walter DUNCAN 55, Pauper, b SKipness
Brother: ALexander DUNCAN 82, Pauper, b Skipness
Sister: Grace DUNCAN 55, Housekeeper, b Skipness
In 1851 Grace is at Rockfield as McIntyre with Angus Mcintyre & Elizabeth Duncan, who I thought might be a sister.
Looking back at my image from 1841 there is a Mary Duncan living with Angus & Grace at Oragaig.
Which fits with Monica's family.
When I did an LDS search I found a Catherine to Peter Duncan & Jean Carmichael.
Hmmmm
Mackiwi
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MCINTYRE, TAYLOR, DUNCAN SKIPNESS & NTH KNAPDALE.
CAMPBELL,MCKINNON,MCDONALD ,ISLE OF COLL.
MCINTYRE,CAMPBELL, ISLE OF BUTE
PERRIN, STEPHENS,PAYNE,FEAKINS,PREECE,DUDSON, ENGLAND, AUSTRALIA,NEW ZEALAND
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MonicaLesl
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Posts: 5680
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Hi Mackiwi and Ambly
Mmm...raising more questions here than answers! Not sure if we will find definitive secondary confirmation of the name of Grace's mother.
From SP's OPR birth/christening entries, these are all DUNCAN entries coming up with father as Peter:
1. 17/05/1784 DUNCAN JOHN PETTER DUNCAN/MARGET MACMICHELL Saddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0087
2. 08/01/1786 DUNCAN JEAN PETTER DUNCAN/MARGET MACILMICHELL Saddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0090
3. 12/02/1788 DUNCAN ----- PETTER DUNCAN/MARGET MACMICHELL Saddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0092
4. 15/02/1788 DUNCAN GRIZEL PETTER DUNCAN/MARGET MACMICHELLSaddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0092
5. 23/01/1790 DUNCAN ANGUS PETTER DUNCAN/MARGET MACMICHELL Saddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0094
1. 28/02/1796 DUNCAN PETTER PETTER DUNCAN/JEAN MACMICHELL Saddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0101
2. 16/07/1800 DUNCAN MARY PETTER DUNCAN/JEAN MACMICHELL Saddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0111
3. 06/03/1803 DUNCAN CATHARINE PETER DUNCAN/JEAN CARMICHAELL Saddell and Skipness /ARGYLL 531/ 0010 0118
My apologies on the mother's details for Mary 1800 and Catherine 1803 - it should be Jean not Margaret  . I searched by the IGI batch code number and only put in Peter duncan for father's name.
Looking at the above order of children, it occurred to me that perhaps Peter Duncan may have been married first to Margaret and then to Jean. So, I looked at Alexander Duncan's death details (who shows as brother in household 1851-61:
1866 DUNCAN ALEXANDER 89 SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/02 0002
He shows as widower of JEAN CARMICHAEL, parents PETER, fisherman, and mother JEAN CARMICHAEL. Brother Walter reported the death at Rockfield.
Now I am confused 
Further thoughts on Grace and Angus McIntyre. Given her age, the marriage entry I found in 1831 on the OPRs would make her c. 43 yrs old at marriage. So, is there another Grace/Angus couple, or were either of them on to a second marriage?
MacKiwi, have you managed to find all the children for your Angus and Grace? From their 1841 census entry at Oragaig, there are only two children showing Mary, 14 and Malena (is this Walter) age 12.
As I said, more questions than answers.....
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
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Posts: 5680
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Confusing matters will also be the family headed up by James DUNCAN, fisherman, and GRACE CARMICHAEL who were having children in Skipness around the same time as Peter and Margaret/Jean.
So many similar names, related most likely, will make it hard to unravel.
MacKiwi, on the issue of name variants for Grace you will find many, Grizel being the most common one. Remember also that spellings weren't set in those times and will can vary enormously.
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Mackiwi
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Hi everyone,
Monica you may be on the right track there, as Angus was on his second marriage,(his first wife died I think in 1834) Malcolm was the youngest born 1830.
So the 1851 census showing Malcolm & Mary with Angus & Grace are the 2 youngest of his family. Angus was previously married to Katrin or Catherine Taylor and they had 6 children Malcom 1818, Angus 1820,Dugal 1822,Ann 1825, Mary 1827,Malcolm 1830.
It appears to me that Angus & Grace never had any children as none show up on any census.
Malcolm did stay nearby until Angus died in 1857 then disappears off my radar until his marriage in 1863 on the Ilse of Bute.
Mackiwi
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MCINTYRE, TAYLOR, DUNCAN SKIPNESS & NTH KNAPDALE.
CAMPBELL,MCKINNON,MCDONALD ,ISLE OF COLL.
MCINTYRE,CAMPBELL, ISLE OF BUTE
PERRIN, STEPHENS,PAYNE,FEAKINS,PREECE,DUDSON, ENGLAND, AUSTRALIA,NEW ZEALAND
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Mackiwi
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Posts: 221
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Hi all,
After much thought, many lists dates calculated this is what I have come up with. Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.
As you suggested a second marriage for either of them I came up with this idea.
I think I can safely go with the marriage of Angus McIntyer & Grisel Duncan (Which means the date for Katrin/Catherine Taylor McIntyre death that I have is wrong).
I found that the same Grisel Duncan b. 1788 had been married before to John Dallas in 1811. They had 5 children the last born in 1827. So I am guessing that John Dallas died between 1827 & 1831, and perhaps Katrin/Catherine died at child birth or soon after in 1830.
Without access to deaths over there I cannot confirm either.(Any suggestions? )
Regarding Peter Duncan & Jean Carmichael - Margaret McMichell, is it possible that the 2 ladies were one and the same !!!!!!Like Jean Margaret Carmichell or Mararet Jean MacMichell the Mac and the Car being transcribed incorrectly
If you feel I am too far out on a limb with these thoughts I will be more than happy to see what you think.
Mackiwi
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MCINTYRE, TAYLOR, DUNCAN SKIPNESS & NTH KNAPDALE.
CAMPBELL,MCKINNON,MCDONALD ,ISLE OF COLL.
MCINTYRE,CAMPBELL, ISLE OF BUTE
PERRIN, STEPHENS,PAYNE,FEAKINS,PREECE,DUDSON, ENGLAND, AUSTRALIA,NEW ZEALAND
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MonicaLesl
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Posts: 5680
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Hi Mackiwi
Sadly, I'm not sure you will ever find the definitive answers to your questions here. With the lack of death info prior to 1855, you can only go with what other supporting info you have.
Malcom's christening was in May 1830 and father Angus's remarriage to Grace was in July 1831. These facts you know from the OPRs. Bear in mind only that Malcom's christening may have been some months (sometimes it can be years for some children) after his birth. But you certainly have an acceptable period where both Angus and Grace's first spouses look to have died and their remarriage.
The issue of the parents of Grace is a little more tricky! My gut feel is that we are talking about two different wives/mothers for Peter and his children. The names are too different for them to be the same woman. If we are right, and it is the same Peter, then first wife Margaret looks to have died when the first set of children were very young (period of 1790-96). This may explain why in son Alexander's death cert. in 1866, Walter (half?) brother cited Jean Carmichael as Alexander's mother. Maybe over the passing of the years, that is all they remembered?
What parents showed for Grace in her 1873 death cert?
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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