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Topic: help please . illegitimate birth saxilby 1861? (Read 409 times)
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Heather DD
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Posts: 2739
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Hi Darren, can't help with parish records but I think William may have been his grandfather
I think this may be your man in 1871 going by his second name, and listed as son rather than grandson
1871 RG10 3454 84 6
Gamston Notts
William Humphrey 56 shepherd Skellingthorpe
Sarah wife 56 Notts Dunham
William son 9 Lincs Saxilby
Then take a look at the 1851 for this couple
1851 HO107 2106 306 52
Saxilby
William Humphrey head 36 no occupation Skellingthorpe
Sarah wife 36 Notts Dunham
various children including a 6 year old Betsey and a 9 year old William
Heather
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Nottinghamshire: Willmott, Williams, Oldham, Padgett, Burden, Stokes, Huskinson, Tuckwood, Morley, Barnett Lincolnshire: Foster, Dennis, Mowbray Leicestershire: Mowbray,Hudson, Tuckwood Derbyshire: Starbrook Somerset: Willmott, Elliott Cork:Driscoll, Murphy London Surrey:Driscoll, Cheesman London Kent:Cheesman Kent:Cheesman, Davis, West, Hills, Kneller, Bones, Eastup Census information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Heather DD
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2739
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1861 RG9 2363 4 2
Betsey is a servant in Cammeringham
and then I lose her.....
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Nottinghamshire: Willmott, Williams, Oldham, Padgett, Burden, Stokes, Huskinson, Tuckwood, Morley, Barnett Lincolnshire: Foster, Dennis, Mowbray Leicestershire: Mowbray,Hudson, Tuckwood Derbyshire: Starbrook Somerset: Willmott, Elliott Cork:Driscoll, Murphy London Surrey:Driscoll, Cheesman London Kent:Cheesman Kent:Cheesman, Davis, West, Hills, Kneller, Bones, Eastup Census information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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daz 2008
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Posts: 52
great grandfather - pic coloured by polldoll
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blooming hell , that was quick!
thanks for the replies
they make very interesting reading , as now ive dug his birth certificate out to check . his name on his birth certificate is actually given just as james , yet his marriage certificate says james william and the 1891 and 1901 census gives james w
i know im jumping to some pretty big conclusions here but that makes me think that he might well of used the name william as it must have come from somewhere. even on his grave it says james william humphrey.
i would have thought it unusual to use your middle name on so many documents if you didnt use it.
it all looks good , but i any ideas on where i could start to try and prove/disprove this ?
thanks for your help
heather - just went to post and it told me you had posted again
great, thanks - i definately got to look into this
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humphrey , baldock , pattison -- lincolnshire
blackwell , gomer -- essex (coggeshall)
dowsett , eldridge , inward -- kent
ticehurst , durrant -- sussex
kearney , o`halloran -- co.clare (ennistymon)
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Heather DD
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2739
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Enjoy your rest 
And when you are refreshed ...are there any clues in the marriage witnesses which might link the two families?
Of course James may not have lied - if Betsey died or disappeared he may have genuinely believed William was his father. I notive his eldest daughter is a Sarah - more circumstantial evidence!
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Nottinghamshire: Willmott, Williams, Oldham, Padgett, Burden, Stokes, Huskinson, Tuckwood, Morley, Barnett Lincolnshire: Foster, Dennis, Mowbray Leicestershire: Mowbray,Hudson, Tuckwood Derbyshire: Starbrook Somerset: Willmott, Elliott Cork:Driscoll, Murphy London Surrey:Driscoll, Cheesman London Kent:Cheesman Kent:Cheesman, Davis, West, Hills, Kneller, Bones, Eastup Census information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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daz 2008
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 52
great grandfather - pic coloured by polldoll
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been looking into this and the plot gets thicker!
heather - on the 1861 census you found , betsey is a servant for the gambles family and on the igi there is a james william gambles humphrey listed as being christened
JAMES WILLIAM GAMBLES HUMPHREYS
Christening:
09 FEB 1862 Welton By Lincoln, Lincoln, England
Mother: BETSY HUMPHREYS
welton is just a couple of miles from cammeringham , & on his birth cert james was born 18 dec 1861
this is all looking like it fits
but how am going to prove this?
his marriage cert witnesses gives no clues , anyone know if there are any bastardy bonds or anything else i could check up on? would the welton parish records tell me any more?
so near yet so far!
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humphrey , baldock , pattison -- lincolnshire
blackwell , gomer -- essex (coggeshall)
dowsett , eldridge , inward -- kent
ticehurst , durrant -- sussex
kearney , o`halloran -- co.clare (ennistymon)
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Heather DD
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2739
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Well done Darren. I'd forgotten about this one and, to be honest, I think you've cracked it.
There "may" be extra information in the Welton registers. It's worth looking but it's unusual to find the father of an illegitimate child mentioned.
From 1844 a mother could initiate a bastardy hearing at a petty sessions court. You'd need to try Lincoln Archives to see what's available. However if the father's family were already offering support or the mother's family had taken the child in, again it's unlikely.
Sometimes you have to accept the balance of probabilities...
you know your James William Humphrey was born to Betsey in Saxilby Dec 1861. You also know he named William as his father.
We have found a potential family in Saxilby and suspect he was raised by grandparents William and Sarah. His eldest daughter was named Sarah.
Betsey we find in 1861 with a Gambles family and shortly after that the baptism for James William Gambles Humphreys.
It adds up and any other possibilty would make this a mind-blowing coincidence ...just my opinion
Heather
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Nottinghamshire: Willmott, Williams, Oldham, Padgett, Burden, Stokes, Huskinson, Tuckwood, Morley, Barnett Lincolnshire: Foster, Dennis, Mowbray Leicestershire: Mowbray,Hudson, Tuckwood Derbyshire: Starbrook Somerset: Willmott, Elliott Cork:Driscoll, Murphy London Surrey:Driscoll, Cheesman London Kent:Cheesman Kent:Cheesman, Davis, West, Hills, Kneller, Bones, Eastup Census information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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daz 2008
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 52
great grandfather - pic coloured by polldoll
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cheers for your help geoff and heather.
i do think that this all adds up and that there is just too many things for it to just be coincidence but going to have a good trawl through the census` & birth records etc to see what i can find.
showed all the "evidence" to my dad this morning , i dont think he was too pleased at first but once i explained it all to him he even said that it looks like pretty conclusive.
that 1861 census was the key , i found the record on the igi ages ago and noted it but then forgot all about it . even when i first looked at the census i didnt notice the gamble family , then when i spotted them this morning it all clicked into place
thanks for your help
another satisfied customer!
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Logged
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humphrey , baldock , pattison -- lincolnshire
blackwell , gomer -- essex (coggeshall)
dowsett , eldridge , inward -- kent
ticehurst , durrant -- sussex
kearney , o`halloran -- co.clare (ennistymon)
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Heather DD
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2739
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You're welcome...
I'd love to know what happened to Betsey. It might help if we knew whether she was baptised Betsey or Elizabeth. Let us know if you find anything!
Heather
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Nottinghamshire: Willmott, Williams, Oldham, Padgett, Burden, Stokes, Huskinson, Tuckwood, Morley, Barnett Lincolnshire: Foster, Dennis, Mowbray Leicestershire: Mowbray,Hudson, Tuckwood Derbyshire: Starbrook Somerset: Willmott, Elliott Cork:Driscoll, Murphy London Surrey:Driscoll, Cheesman London Kent:Cheesman Kent:Cheesman, Davis, West, Hills, Kneller, Bones, Eastup Census information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Heather DD
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2739
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I think I got her
Marriage Betsy Humphrey Mar 1867 East Retford
Arthur John Holberry or
David Lewis
1881
RG11 2710 59 15
99 High Street Tunstall Wolstanton Staffs
David Lewis head 42 upholsterer Lincs Horncastle
Betsy wife 36 Saxilby
Sarah Ann dau 13 Notts Retford
Mary Jane dau 11 Notts Retford
Annie ?? dau 9 Tunstall
Samuel son 7 do
Arthur son 4 do
Eliza dau under 1 month do
Sorry, I don't like to give up on loose ends!
Heather
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Nottinghamshire: Willmott, Williams, Oldham, Padgett, Burden, Stokes, Huskinson, Tuckwood, Morley, Barnett Lincolnshire: Foster, Dennis, Mowbray Leicestershire: Mowbray,Hudson, Tuckwood Derbyshire: Starbrook Somerset: Willmott, Elliott Cork:Driscoll, Murphy London Surrey:Driscoll, Cheesman London Kent:Cheesman Kent:Cheesman, Davis, West, Hills, Kneller, Bones, Eastup Census information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Heather DD
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2739
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The marriage took place at Ordsall All Hallows 24 March 1867 (Notts FHS marriage index)
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Nottinghamshire: Willmott, Williams, Oldham, Padgett, Burden, Stokes, Huskinson, Tuckwood, Morley, Barnett Lincolnshire: Foster, Dennis, Mowbray Leicestershire: Mowbray,Hudson, Tuckwood Derbyshire: Starbrook Somerset: Willmott, Elliott Cork:Driscoll, Murphy London Surrey:Driscoll, Cheesman London Kent:Cheesman Kent:Cheesman, Davis, West, Hills, Kneller, Bones, Eastup Census information is crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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