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Topic: Newbie looking for help on Christies of Arboath (Read 506 times)
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nzmike
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi all,
This is my first post and I'm pretty new to the whole genealogy thing so please be gentle with me! ;-)
I am trying to track family and forebears of my great-grandfather James Christie who was born in Arbroath on 20-Feb-1858 and died on 23-July-1911, also in Arbroath. He married one Barbara Finlayson on 08-Nov-1978 and divorced her in 1909 for some reason I have not yet been able to find out. (Links to images of his birth and death cert are at the bottom of this post.)
Basically I would like to know if he had any siblings or other children apart from 2 sons - yet another James Christie and my grandfather George Johnstone Christie (b. 05-Dec-1884 at 38 Mary St, Arbroath, d. 05-Mar-1947 in Dunedin, NZ). In particular I am trying to find his father, also a James Christie, who had my great-grandfather out of wedlock with one Matilda Mahon(e). They were both flax mill workers (not surprisingly all my Christie relatives seemed to work 'down the mill') and I know in 1858 he was living in Gravesend, Arbroath when my great-grandfather was born.
My problem is that I can't nail down any firm details as there were so many James Christie's in Angus in those days so if anyone can help I would really appreciate it. I have tried ScotlandsPeople and FindMyPast but there are just so many James Christie's and none of really them fit any dates I have. I have googled and looked up every record library, registrar and website I can find with no real luck so I am hoping someone in Scotland or the UK may be help me (I am a Kiwi but live in Sydney at present).
I think the image (see link below) of the 1861 census could be him as he has a son James Christie, age 2, which could be my great-grandfather as the age would fit given he was born in 1858. This would mean that he was married with 4 or 5 other children when he (perhaps) had a fling with Matilda Mahon(e) and had my great-grandfather then raised him as part of the family - would love to be able to confirm that though!
Anyway, if I haven't completely confused everyone, I'd certainly appreciate any help finding out more about any of the James Christie's mentioned above - or else any other good advice or web links etc that might help really nail down some more concrete info.
Cheers,
Mike
1861 Census: http://www.41south.com/familyresearch/Census1861_James_Christie.gif
(Can anyone tell what all the names under the Christie entry are as well the street name?)
Birth Cert of my great-grandfather James Christie:
http://www.41south.com/familyresearch/BirthCert_James-Christie_20-02-1858.gif
Death Cert of same:
http://www.41south.com/familyresearch/DeathCert_JamesChristie_23-07-1911.gif
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Christie (Arbroath, Scotland and New Zealand)
Murdock/Murdoch (Scotland and New Zealand)
Rowe (Cornwall and New Zealand)
Hedrick (Scotland and New Zealand)
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ev
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
TIA after her op. (clothes by "NIKKI") "dressed"
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hi mike
welcome to rootschat 
1881 census 40 howard st arbroath
james christie 23 flax mill overseer
barbara christie 22 wife
john F christie 1 son
all born arbroath (from ancestry)
i think this is them , johns middle name being f(finlayson ?)and
everything else lines up
just to recap - i take it you have you grandfathers(george) death cert. which
gives you james and barbara , and from your great grandfathers death
cert you have barbara(wife) father(james) but no mother
how did you get matilda mahon ?
was it from james marriage cert ?
yours
ev
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ev
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
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hi mike
from scotlandspeople
there is a barbara finlayson or christie who died 1932 arbroath angus
born 1859
this might be your great grandmother
IGI has a submitted entry for barbara findlayson born 13th august 1858
arbroath angus parents john findlayson mother mary mitchell
now -
1891 census 22 hayswell road arbroath
john findlayson 61 blacksmith
mary findlayson 70(wife)
jessie findlayson 30(daughter) canvas weaver
john christie 11(grandson)
james christie 9(grandson)
no sign of parents james and barbara or son george on 1891
ev
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Piglet01
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 717
Captain Bob as a boy
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Hello again Mike,
The 1861 census is something else. Been on Genuki to confirm the parish in case you didn't have that info
Parish of St Vigeans, Parish of Aberbrothock, Burgh of Arbroath.
No on schedule - obviously 160.
8  ??
Where Born
James Christie Head M 44 Flax dresser? Forfarshire/St Vigeans
May/Mary Christie Wife M 38 Forfarshire/St Vigeans
Christie Daur 14 Flax factory Worker F/shire Arbroath
Isobel Christie Daur 11 Flax factory Worker F/shire Arbroath
May/ Mary Ann Christie Daur 9 Scholar F/shire Dundee
Robert Christie Son 6 Scholar F/shire Arbroath
James Christie Son 2 F/shire Arbroath
Please feel free to interpret differently :O)
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McDonald originating in Aberlour. Smith (Aberdeenshire/Aberdeen), Esslemont, Christie, Robbie; Scott (in Aberdour). Crosbie and Willison. Roxburgh: Lawrie, Thomson, Paxton, Peacock, Amos, Robson
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ev
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hi all
the address is 8 doigs vennel and the daughter is agnes(i think)
ev
ps think this could be the family of james christie and mary fettes
isabel , agnes , robert , and james just about line up on IGI 
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ev
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
TIA after her op. (clothes by "NIKKI") "dressed"
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steve
try this site
http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/
good for old arbroath street names
there is a doigs vennel
the site also has other info. on arbroath well worth a look
ev
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nzmike
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Ok, I've had a chance to digest the info given by ev and Steve....
First, ev, thanks for the 1881 & 1891 census info.... I agree everything fits so it really has to be them in both cases. I didn't previously know about John F Christie or Florence so they are totally new people in my family tree. Did you got this info from Ancestry.co.uk?
Also ev, when you say "The 1861 census is something else" what do you mean? I think it looks possible to be the same family as James (the son) is 2 years of age which would mean he could have been born in 1858 and not yet turned 3 when the census was done. Also, from the marriage certificate of James Christie and Barbara Finlayson in 1878, it shows his mother's maiden name to indeed be "Fettes" so I think it is most likely to be the same family. If you don't think it's the same family what makes you think that? (i.e: what have I missed?!)
Sorry if I confused you re Barbara Christie... there are so many James Christie's it's hard to explain it all clearly. Anyway, there was only one Barbara (nee Finlayson - note, no 'd' in the name, despite the census adding one) who was married to James, my great grandfather (and yes, she died in 1932 in Arbroath). From the same marriage certificate I can confirm that Barbara's parents were John Finlayson and Mary Mitchell.
If you look at the link I posted to my g.g.f James Christie's birth cert in my first post you will see his mother is listed as Matilda Mahon and the father is also James Christie (therefore my great great grandfather). It is this man I suspected was in fact already married (to Mary Fettes it would now seem) with children and obviously had a fling with our Miss Mahon who most likely worked at the same mill.
So I guess now I can do a search on ScotlandsPeople or the IGI etc for a James Christie born around 1817... am assuming it was in Arbroath since but naturally he could have come from anywhere.
Thanks also for the 1891 census info... I am guessing the person doing the census simply assumed the Finlaysons name had a 'd' in it - interesting to note that the two Christie grandsons lived with them.... Very interesting that neither James, Brabara or George Christie are in it. I can't help wondering if they went out to NZ or somewhere else to build a new life leaving the two youngest sons with their grandparents until they could afford to send for them. Although given they both died in Arbroath I guess that seems unlikely... perhaps they were just so poor they needed help to clothe, house and feed the 2 younger sons James and John. Or perhaps Barbara was ill or just not a good mother, hence my g.g.f divorcing her around 1909.
All questions which I doubt I'll ever get a definitive answer to.
Another Q - for people like this who were very obviously working class and probably very poor would they have been likely to have had headstones when they died? If so, does anyone know any way of finding where they might be buried? (I guess I'd need to write to Angus Council for that info as I've not found it online anywhere.)
Thanks also for the two websites - I had previosuly stumbled across them and http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/ is very, very useful (shame about the annoying music but you can't have everything!). The Angus council site I will keep my eye on as it appears so far not much is available online.... later this year there will be more according to them.
The problem with doing this is i could ask a million questions... but I'd be here night and end up doing a Tolstoy!
Many thanks again for the help.... it's allowed me to make a lot of headway in just one day!
Mike
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Christie (Arbroath, Scotland and New Zealand)
Murdock/Murdoch (Scotland and New Zealand)
Rowe (Cornwall and New Zealand)
Hedrick (Scotland and New Zealand)
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ev
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1234
TIA after her op. (clothes by "NIKKI") "dressed"
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hi mike
it was steve who said "the 1861 census was something else"
james and barbara marriage cert lists mary fettes as his mother
there is a son born to james christie and mary fettes on the IGI
13th december 1857 arbroath angus
although james is listed as 2 on the census and he should be 3
what makes you think that this isn't your james ?
there is only one death listed on scotlandspeople between 1857 and 1861 for a james christie - born 1858 died 1858 arbroath angus
so if it's not james and mary's son then that would lead me to think that
this james is your man , unless i'm missing something
i subscribe to ancestry for census returns to try and pin people down
then buy credits on scotlandspeople to obtain certificates
i don't think the salvation army would keep records
people using their services could give a false name and if homeless
could be anybody
had a look at the national archives of scotland for a divorce but nothing
on line , but there are divorces listed so may be they could help
a james christie married mary fettes 14th november 1846 st. vigeans
(arbroath) angus
ev
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 22 January 08 15:36 GMT (UK) by ev »
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nzmike
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 16
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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ev, sorry about the mis-quote... it was pretty late when I wrote it. (But I do agree with you Steve, the handwriting is almost illegible!)
I think I must have confused you again with my War & Peace post.... I was actually agreeing with you that it must be the James Christie, married to Mary Fettes, who is my great great grandfather. And now I know that for sure as I can trace back the whole lineage via BD&M certificates from him down to myself. (Now I have try to find his marriage and birth certs and start the search for another generation back - which will no doubt involve more fun and games with mulitple James Christie's!)
So I guess the other James Christie who had a son of the same name with Matilda Mahon was the wrong one - but the dates and other stuff seemed correct so I assumed it was him. (Now I can admit I'm quietly relived my great grandfather wasn't illegitimate after all!)
It is odd that the son James Christie is listed as being 2 as he certainly would have been 3 in 1861... perhaps his father had had one dram too many when the census-taker came to the door that night or he mis-heard the age - sadly, we'll never know.
Thanks again for the help - it helps having another 2 or 3 pairs of eyes looking at this, especially given how confusing the whole James Christie situation is and between you, you've helped me work through a total dead end I had with my g.g.f.
Anyone have any opinions re my questions about these sort of working class, probably very poor, people having headstones and/or how to find where they might be buried?
Cheers,
Mike
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Christie (Arbroath, Scotland and New Zealand)
Murdock/Murdoch (Scotland and New Zealand)
Rowe (Cornwall and New Zealand)
Hedrick (Scotland and New Zealand)
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