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Topic: A disrupted family (Read 3846 times)
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tommacgregor
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Posts: 1207
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello All,
First of all, let me say a very big thank-you to "Sancti" for devoting so much of his time in assisting in the search for James Livingstone, husband of Janet Cooper. "Sancti" was in contact with me long before I joined RootsChat and has helped me enormously with many genealogical matters.
It is often said that 'You can't keep a good man down". Why on earth then does the spectre of James Livingstone keep appearing? It's O.K. MonicaL, I'm allowed o make those tongue in cheek remarks since my mother was a Livingstone. Tut! Tut! indeed. You know I'm only kidding.
Let me now try to place the bits of information into some semblance of order. I can go back further, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me to examine the 1861 Census taken at Muiralehouse, Parish of St Ninians, Stirlingshire. Here we find James Livingstone, aged 33 living with his 28 year-old wife, Janet Cooper. On that document it is made patently clear that he was a Blacksmith/Journeyman and that his place of birth was Dunfermline in Fife. We can also see that Mary Livingstone, their daughter was born shortly after the marriage and, according to the Census she was aged 9. Then we find James, aged 6, and finally Janet, who was born on 29th May, 1856 - all born at St Ninians.
However, I can tell you that their son, William was born on 26th May, 1858, their daughter Margaret (Maggie) was born on 25th April, 1860 and finally, my Great-Grandfather, Samuel Livingstone was born on 5th August, 1862 at St. Ninians. All of that can be confirmed in private family papers.
On August 14th, 1870, tragedy struck the family when Janet Cooper died due to a malignant ulceration of the throat. She was only 36. Janet's parents were Samuel Cooper, a weaver (deceased) and Mary Cooper, M.S. Dick. The Death Certificate states that Janet was married to James Livingstone, a blacksmith.
Only eight months later in a Census taken at the Poor House in Dunfermline, on 2nd April, 1871, we find Margaret (Maggie) and her brother Samuel as inmates. Why? Couldn't any of the extended family have taken them in?
I will skip forward a bit and mention a Census taken in 1881 at Dunfermline, where Janet Livingstone, aged about 24 had Samuel and Janet living with her. The following year, on the 27th November, 1882, at Cowdenbeath, Samuel Livingstone, an engineer, Married Jane Reid, a damask factory worker. Samuel was 20 and his bride, 19. On the Marriage Certificate, Samuel's parents are shown as James Livingstone, Blacksmith and Janet Livingstone M.S. Cooper (deceased). Jane's parents: David Reid, coalminer and Margaret Reid M.S. McGreechan. on 24th March of that same year, Samuel's elder brother, William, married Cecilia Roberts at Pittencrieff Street, DUNFERMLINE. On this Certificate, Williams father is shown as James Livingstone, Occupation: Farmer and his mother, Janet Livingstone M.S. Cooper (deceased) A couple of years later, on 29th August, 1884, at No. 205 Seatown, Cullen in Banffshire, James Livingstone, Jnr. a freestone journeyman, married Jane Findlay, a domestic servant. On this Certificate, James' father is shown as James Livingstone and his occupation as Master Blacksmith. His mother is shown as Janet Livingstone M.S. Cooper (deceased). Jane's parent are shown as William Findlay, fisherman (deceased) and Ann Findlay M.S. Murray. It is interesting to note that William Findlay and his wife, Ann, had 10 children: John, William, Ann, James, Francis, George, Isabella, Alexander, Frances, and Jane.
I will have to continue the balance of what I want to say on another posting.
Kind regards,
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello again,
Skipping forward, we can see a Census taken in the Civil Parish of Abbotshall on 5th April, 1891 at 137 Heggies Wynd that shows James Livingstone, Jnr aged 35, a quarryman, b. Bannockburn Stirling. His wife, Jane Livingstone M.S. Findlay aged 34 b. Cullen, Banff and also Maggie Livingstone, James' sister, aged 29, a linen weaver, b. Bannockburn, Stirling.
28 years later, on 24th February, 1919, James Livingstone Jnr was dead due to cardiac degenertion. He died in the District of Rathven in the County of Banff. He is described as the widower of Jane Findlay. Unlike the marriage certificate of 1884, his father, James Livingstone, Snr is described as a Gold Digger(deceased). I sucked in my breath a bit when I looked at the mother's details. To me it looked like ANN LIVINGSTONE M.S. ......... (deceased) I know that my eyesight is beginning to fail or maybe the writing on the certificate is a bit faint, but maybe people out there will take a close look at it for me!
Moving forward yet again we come to the year 1931, and as our good friend "Sancti" tells us, Margaret SIMPSON, widow of George SIMPSON, a coal miner, died athe age of 70 due to cardiac inefficiency. Her father is shown as James Livingstone, Blacksmith (deceased) and her mother, Janet Cooper (deceased).
What we are seeing, I believe, is a disrupted family. Something happened between the birth of Samuel Livingstone and the death of his mother in 1870. Had James Livingstone, Snr left his wife? Did he remarry? What about the differences of statements concerning his occupation. For most of the time that I have covered, he is shown to have been a Blacksmith, Blacksmith/Journeyman, Master Blacksmith and then, more or less out of the blue, he was a Gold Digger. As I have already stated elsewhere, the story from descendants here in Australia is that James Livingstone, Snr. did indeed work in a gold mine and that he had "another woman" and that he was a "bigamist". No smoke without fire?
During a telephone discussion with my elder brother who lives in the West Midlands of England, he informed me that during a visit to our relatives in Canada, one of his cousins had stated quite emphatically that James had worked in a goldmine, but not in America. The only other location that I could think of was South Africa. However, being the Doubting Thomas that I am, I will believe it only when I see documentary evidence.
Let me say once again, many thanks to "Sancti" who has followed me step-by-step through this epic journey.
Researchers on RootsChat now have a vast amount of information about this disrupted family and I hope that one day the mystery will be resolved going on good, solid evidence.
Kind regards,
Tom.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
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Hi Tom
Just one question on the circumstances immediately following Janet Cooper's death in 1870 and the fact that young Samuel and Maggie ended up in the Dunfermline Poor House for the 1871 census. Have you ever followed up to see if any poor relief records remain which may explain the reason why the children were sent there? The fact that James Snr. did not report his wife's death in 1870 has always made me think, given what followed, that he may already have left the household by 1870.
Regards.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire.
Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll.
Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire.
Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan.
McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland.
Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland.
..........and lots of Spanish name interests........
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1207
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello Monica,
Yes, very often. I am really puzzled as to why members of the family didn't get together and take the two children in. As you would know from my other postings, their elder sister, Janet Livingstone, (the lady who sailed off to Sunny Australia and married John Forbes), took them into her lodgings in Dunfermline , but the Census showed that young Samuel married the following year in 1882 and settled with his family in the Beath area of Fife.
If you you can point me in the right direction re the documents that may be kept in some dusty archive, (probably in Dunfermline), then I will give it my best shot. I alredy made a few tentative enquiries with the people at Dunfermline Library.
Very many thanks for the great interest that you are taking in this old Fife family.
Kind regards,
Tom.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4488
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That's a pity - just checked on www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?Dunfermline/Dunfermline.shtml - apparently no records survived 
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire.
Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll.
Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire.
Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan.
McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland.
Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland.
..........and lots of Spanish name interests........
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
 Online
Posts: 1092
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Tom
I received this reply from the Fife Council archivist
The problem is that the registers of inmates and other poorhouse records have not survived.
You could check the minutes of the Parochial Board that sent him to the poorhouse. Normally the minutes will give you brief details of the reason for admission.
If his family came from the parish of Dunfermline check the Parochial Board minutes at Dunfermline Carnegie Library. If they came from another parish, the surviving minute books are here at the Archive Centre
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MonicaLesl
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Posts: 4488
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That's great Sancti - so there might still be the Parochial records to search. Fingers crossed 
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire.
Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll.
Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire.
Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan.
McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland.
Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland.
..........and lots of Spanish name interests........
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1092
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Tom
I noted that Janet's death record stated her malignant ulceration of throat was said to be 'several years'
Perhaps James did leave the family home with all the children and moved to Dunfermline before her death in 1870. The answer lies in when the 2 youngest entered the poor house.
There is also the fact that 16 yr old sister Janet is living in Dunfermline with 'cousin' John Berwick on the 1871 census.
Do you know where the others were in 1871?
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1207
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello "Sancti",
Many thanks for your query. I am still going at it hammer and tongs as you will see by my postings. All I can tell you at this stage is that Maggie and Samuel appear on the 1871 Census taken at Dunfermline Poorhouse.
I am taking steps to find out more about the death of Janet Livingstone M.S. Cooper, who died at ST NINIANS, STIRLINGSHIRE in 1870. It looks to me that her Cooper family, who also lived AT ST NINIANS were involved since Janet's bother, David Cooper was the Informant on her Death Certificate. As you would probably know, Janet's mother, Mary had originally married Samuel Cooper but he died fairly early in the piece and married a guy named McFarlane.
This is what is really bugging me. Couldn't Mary McFarlane or David Cooper done something for Maggie and Samuel when their mother died?
Kind regards,
Tom.
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1092
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Perhaps the children were no longer living in St Ninians when their mother died. Do you know where the 2 eldest children were in 1871 census?
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sancti
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1092
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Tom
On James jnr's death record it does say mother: Ann m.s. .........
I take it that the informant did not know who his mother was.
The informant is Mary ..............? occupier
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1207
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello "Sancti",
Many thanks for your most welome input.
Although Mary Livingstone was undoubtedly the eldest child born to James and Janet in 1852, one can only assume that she died early.
James Livingstone, Jnr was born in 1852 and I have no information whatsoever where he was in 1871. We have to bear in mind that he would have been aged 15 at the time of his mother's death, and in the workforce.
Janet Livingstone was born in 1857 and would have been 13 at the time of her mother's death and she too could have been in the workforce as a linen weaver, (which she was in 1881).
William Livingstone was born in 1859 and would have been 11 at the time of his mother's death. He would still be regarded as a scholar.
Margaret Livingstone was born in 1861 and would have been 9 at the time of her mother's death. She would still be regarded as a scholar.
Samuel Livingstone was born in 1862 and would have been eight at the time of his mother's death. He tto would have been regarded as a scholar.
(a) I think that we can disregard Mary as far as the problem is concerned. I have no records of her whatsoever.
James eventually became a quarryman and had that occupation on his Marriage Certificate. He would have been perfectly capable of living in lodgings, but where?
Janet can be found on the 1871 Census staying with or merely visiting her cousin living in Dunfermline.
William was still at school - but where?
Margaret and Samuel were shown to be inmates at Dunfermline Poorhouse in 1871. Who put them there? An Inspector of the Poor, or a member of the family?
The next thing tht I see is the 1881 Census that shows Janet Livingstone in her own lodgings at No. 64 Woodhead Street, Dunfermline. Both Margaret and Samuel with her. Permanently or on a visit?
One may ask when Margaret and Samuel were released from the Poorhouse. Who released them and where did they go?
Quite clearly, James Livingstone, Jnr, Janet Livingstone and William would have pretty accurate memories of that distressing time, I'm sure many people of my age can remember things that occurred at least after the age of five.
O.K. keep following me. James went on to marry Jane Findlay from Banff and settled in Kirkcaldy. Are we supposed to believe that he never mentioned the traumatic period around the time of his mother's death? When his young sister, was with him and his wife according to the 1891 Census, did they just talk about the weather?
Janet Livingstone emigrated to Australia and didn't die until 1948, I believe. Again, are we supposed to believe that she never discussed what happened around the time of her mother's death including Margaret and Samuel being placed in the Poorhouse?
William and his wife and children, (one was born on ship), have much the same scenario. Again, are we to believe that the traumatic period was never spoken of?
How about Margaret (Maggie) one of the inmates at the Poorhouse. Are we supposed to believe that she never talked about her experiences to anyone?
How about my Great-Grandfather, Samuel.? So the list goes on and on.
Another slant. Could it be that James Snr was an only child? I wouldn't have a clue since I don't know who his parents were.
In closing this post, when were Margaret and Samuel admitted as inmates to the Poorhouse and when were they released? I see that as one of the keys to the mystery, and surely the lock that the key fits into is the paperwork from either the Inspector of the Poor or the Board of Supervision for the Relief of the Poor in Edinburgh. I am pushing on with those enquiries.
Kind regards,
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1207
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello All,
Reading my previous postings, it seems to me that perhaps I was unkind in condemning the Cooper family for not taking in the younger children of James Livingsone and his wife, Janet Cooper. Why do I say that? Well, Mary Cooper's mother, Mary Dick, had remarried after the death of her first husband, Samuel Cooper and was about 77 years old at the time of her death. (She actually died on the 26th March, 1873 and her age was given as 80). How could an elderly widow have coped with a mentally retarded child and her brother and sister?
How about Mary Cooper's brother, David, who had acted as Informant on her Death Certificate? Well, his wife, Agnes Allan had given birth to their son, David Cooper on 1st December, 1867 and was pregnant with her daughter Mary Cooper who was actually born on 24th September, 1870 - a short time after the death of Mary Cooper.
What a tragic situation, and how poor Janet Cooper must have been heart-broken at the time of her death, having seen her three children committed to Dunfermline Poorhouse, and then one of them, Mary, being placed in the Asylum at Springfield, near Cupar in Fife.
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1207
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello All,
Now that we have other firm evidence relating to the Livingstone family, where should we go from here? The biggest mystery of all, is what happened to the husband of Janet Cooper - James Livingstone?
As I see it, Janet Cooper's brother, David, is a key player in trying to solve the mystery as are James Livingstone Junior and Maggie Livingstone. When we look at the Census taken on 2nd April, 1871 in the Parish of Bannockburn in Stirlingshire, we find:
David Cooper Head Age 40 Quarryman born St Ninians Bannockburn
Agnes Allan Wife Age 38 " " " "
Samuel Cooper Son Age 12 " " " "
Katherine Cooper Dau Age 10 " " " "
Peter Cooper Son Age 7 " " " "
David Cooper Son Age 3 " " " "
Mary Cooper Dau Age 6 mths " " " "
David Cooper, the brother of Jane Cooper, died on the 15th August, 1903 and his 33 year-old daughter was the informant on his Death Certificate.
One wonders whether David sat down and talked about the tragic death of his sister, the commitals to the Poorhouse and Asylum, and the disappearance of his Brother-in-Law. I find it difficult to believe that he didn't.
I also wonder whether a search should be mounted for the descendants of David in order to see if any memories or paperwork exists that my explain the mysterious disappearance of James Livingstone.
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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tommacgregor
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1207
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello All,
I am well aware that James Livingstone Junior was living with his wife, Jane Findlay at Dirleton in East Lothian in the year 1901. I am also aware that his sister, Margaret, (Maggie), married at nearby North Leith, Edinburgh in December, 1902. Samuel was married and living in Cowdenbeath in Fife, and William and his sister, Janet, had emigrated to Australia.
Surely, the three children must have discussed their early childhood and just how tragic it must have been - or is that just wishful thinking on my part. I honestly don't think so.
Maggie Livingstone returned to Fife with her husband, George Simpson and lived at Rosyth to the south of Dunfermline. She died on January 29th., 1931 at Blackmarch Road, Rosyth at the age of 70. The informant on her Death Certificate was her son, whom I believe was named James Simpson. Was James in on the mystery of the disappearance of his Grandfather, James Livingstone?
As other researchers can see, I don't believe that this Cold Case is as cold as it may appear to be. Surely, some people over in Scotland have some information about the mystery of James Livingstone. What is needed is a concerted effort by people over there to talk to the descendants of the Livingstone, Cooper, Findlay and Simpson families. Too big a job? I don't think so, but, I'm wide open to suggestions!
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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