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Topic: Help needed to break down my brickwall (Read 1020 times)
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 713
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I really, really need some advice on this family, would anyone be willing to have a look with a fresh set of eyes to see what I am missing. 
I am searching for the birth of Helen Duncanson who married Peter Morrison in Stirling November 1870 age 19. On her marriage certificate it gives her parents as Thomas Duncanson Butcher Journeyman and Sarah Duncanson maiden name Henderson. On her death certificate in 1916 it gives her age as 59 which would mean she was born 1857 not 1850/1, and the same parents names but it doesn't say MS before Henderson as on other records on the same page.
This is where my problems start. I cannot find Helen's birth record or the marriage of a Thomas Duncanson butcher/flesher to a Sarah Henderson hawker. I think I have found Thomas on a couple of censuses who states his occupation as Master Butcher/Flesher and the death record for a Thomas Master Butcher. However I can't prove that this is the right Thomas as this one I think married a Janet Allison in St Ninian's 1850. Janet died and then he married Agnes Bain who was 18 years younger than him. He appears to be the only Thomas Duncanson who was a butcher/flesher in the area.
Can anyone please help me to unravel this mystery before I tear my hair out. Aaarh!!
Wait until I start on the Morrison side they are even more elusive. 
Margaret
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4936
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Margaret
Sorry! a few questions  ......Just so I read it right....when Helen died it named her mother as just "Sarah HENDERSON" rather than Sarah DUNCANCSON, MS HENDERSON?
On which record was Sarah HENDERSON named as a Hawker?
Are either Sarah or Thomas stated as deceased on either marriage or death of Helen?
In Census 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 (subsequent to the marriage) what age and places of birth did it say for Helen?
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4936
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Margaret
OK, have answered most of my own questions
Some from this other topic in 2006
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,121563.0.html
CERT: Helen's death:
Helen MORRISON age 59, widow of Peter MORRISON Pit Labourer died 22nd June 1916, ....... Usual residence, 88 Main Street, St. Ninians. Daughter of Thomas DUNCANSON (Butcher Master) deceased and Sarah HENDERSON (Hawker) deceased .........Death registered by Thomas MORRISON , son of 1, Weaver Row, St. Ninians
CERT : Peter's Death:
Peter MORRISON, Pit Labourer married to Helen DUNCANSON died 1st January 1907 at 1hr 30m AM at 64, Main Street, St. Ninians. (Usual Residence - 88, Main Street, St. Ninians) aged 57. Son of Peter MORRISON (Quarryman) deceased and Margaret MORRISON, deceased. ..........death registered by his son, Thomas MORRISON, present of 51, Main Street, St. Ninians.
IGI Children born to Peter MORRISON and Helen DUNCANSON which made it on to IGI:
1) Sarah Henderson MORRISON b Glasgow Apr 1872, Bridgeton, Glasgow LNK
2) Peter MORRISON b Aug 1874 High Church, Glasgow LNK
Census:
1871: Cannot locate newly wed Peter and Helen - possibly in STG St Ninians/Bannockburn or poss in LNK where they - or at least Helen was, by Apr 1872.
1881: Steins Square, St Ninians
488/2, ED 3, pg 27
Head: Peter Morrison, 34, labourer, b Bannockburn STG
Wife: Helen, 28, b Stirling STG
Son: Peter 6, b Glasgow LNK
Son: Thomas 3, Glasgow LNK
Son: William 11 mth, b Bannockburn STG
(Peter Snr's possible mother Margaret MORISON is living next door)
(Where is Sarah b 1872 - did she die before 1881)
1891: Quakerfield, Bannockburn, St Ninians, Stirlingshire
488/2, ED 3, pg 11
Head: Helen MORRISON 37, b Stirling STG
Son: Thomas MORRISON 13, Scholar, b Glasgow LNK
Son: William MORRISON 10, Scholar, b Bannockburn STG
Son: Joseph MORRISON 8, Scholar, b Bannockburn STG
Son: James MORRISON 6, Scholar, b Bannockburn STG
(Father Peter maybe "down the Pit" and may have gotten missed off this Census. This was common for Pit workers. If his son Peter had not died between 1881/1891, then he was likely too down the pit at this time?)
1901 Old Bridge, Bannockburn, St Ninians, Stirlingshire
488/2, ED 1 pg 22
Head: Peter MORRISON 50, Pithead labourer, b Bannockburn STG
Wife: Hellen MORRISON 45, b Stirling, STG
Son: Joseph MORRIOSN 18, Coalminer Hewer, b b Bannockburn STG
Son: James MORRISON 15, Coalminer Hewer, b b Bannockburn STG
Dau: Mary Ann MORRISON 9, Scholar, b Bannockburn STG
Adopted Dau: Mary DRUMMOND 8 mths, b Stirling, STG
Boarder Jsoeph WILSON N 52, Pit Sinker, b England
Helen :--
Marriage Nov 1870 - age 19 = born 1851
1871 - age ?
1881 - age 28 = 1853 (and abt 17 in 1870)
1891 - age 37 = 1854 (and abt 16 in 1870)
1901 = age 45 = 1856 (and abt 14 in 1870)
Died Jun 1916 age 59 - age 59 = 1857 (and abt 13 in 1870)
Possibility: Helen did up her age, to make herself over 18 when she married Peter - but possibly was born around 1853/1854 (oh for 1855!) . ANd then began downing her age a wee bit, when she hit her 40's ??
Or it may depend on when a birthday fell .....and whether or not she applied her own 'rounding" to her Census ages becasue of it
I guess: the one thing to ask: Regarding the marriage of Helen and Peter:
What is the actual wording in the column for Helen's parent's information?
Who were the witness to the marriage?
Cheers
AMBLY
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 713
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Hi Ambly
Thanks for all your hard work. It says Thomas Duncanson Butcher Journeyman and underneath Sarah Duncanson m.s Henderson. The witnesses were Peter Henderson and Mary Ann Duncanson.
I have looked for Mary Ann with parents Thomas and Sarah/Janet/Agnes but can't find any link. As for Peter Henderson maybe he was a cousin? Both give 16 Low Castle Hill as their address if that's any help.
Can't believe that I missed the two children on the IGI  I think my brain is a bit addled at the moment.
You may be right about the two Peter's being at work because Peter the son went on to have a daughter in 1907 named Helen Duncanson Morrison. She died 1908. Peter the father died 1907 so your idea about them being at work makes sense.
Margaret
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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Hi Margaret and Ambly
There is one possibility for Helen in 1871. You would have to look at the original on SP as i think the transcription is gone awry...but it could well be Helen just married with her mother
Shean (could this be Sarah) Henderson 44, no occupation showing, b. Eilenton, Midloth
Mary Ann Drummond (sic. or Henderson) 19 daughter, servant b. Stirling
Ellen Morrison 18 (sic. or Henderson) 18 daughter, mill worker b. Stirling
Address: 102 St Mary's Wynd, Stirling
If the right entry, it would look like Sarah was certainly not married to Thomas Duncanson. Something to work from....
Regards.
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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A possible entry for Sarah Henderson in 1861 at Stirling Poor House:
Sarah Henderson, 30, inmate, Domestic Servant, b. Edinburgh St Cuthberts
If the right entry, I wonder where her daughters were and who was looking after them 
Monica
Added: Possible entry 1861 for Helen as Helen Duncanson age 10 b Stirling at the Industrial School in Stirling. A further entry for female A. Duncanson age 13 b. Stirling (I'm thinking maybe Mary Ann?) alongside Helen.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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I think also I have found Helen, sister and mother in 1851, ages a little all over the place - what's new!
Emma (father!) Henderson 56, lab. (mason), b. Ireland
Mary Henderson 50, Ireland
Sarah Henderson 24, daughter, b. Eding, Midlothian
Mary Henderson 4, granddaughter, b. Stirling
Ellen Henderson 7 Mo, granddaughter, b. Stirling
Address: Tolbooth Wynd, Stirling
Monica
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4936
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Monica and Margaret
I was pondering over that 1851 too Monica Ah! But what go me was the 2 girls (on a not to be named source  ) had them listed as Nieces to the head! So they were grandaughters....
Obviously the Head is not Emma (maybe it's Andrew? Or Eamon or similar?)
There were 4 Hendersons in the Workhouse 1861....not sure if they were all listed 'together, though - I suspect Mary and Sarah being together at least?
1861: Stirling Poorhouse, Stirling, Stirlingshire
Parish: 490, pg 3
Inmate: Mary HENDERSON 66, Domestic Servant, b Ireland
Inmate: Sarah HENDERSON 30, Domestic Servant, b St Cuthbert Midlothian
Inmate: Christina HENDERSON 23, b Stirling
Inmate: Andrew HENDERSON 8, SCholar, b STirling
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4936
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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OOh, that was agoo 1871 find Monica!! Well spotted.
Margaret - a look on the original of that 1871, may hopefully state Ellen MORRISON is a married woman!
I see a wall crumbling
Cheers
AMBLY
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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Ambly
The 1851 census transcript entry does have Mary and Helen as nieces not granddaughters (too many searches this pm ) but Sarah does show as daughter
I wonder if the 1861 census entry at Stirling Poorhouse for Mary H 60 is the same Mary 50 who shows in 1851. Feels like it doesn't it.
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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Likely death entry for Helen's mother Sarah:
1888 HENDERSON SARAH 55 BANNOCKBURN /STIRLING 488/02 0021
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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Dooh! I am slowing down now...
Witness at Helen's wedding....Mary Ann Duncanson...her sister....
As you can tell Ambly, I'm not long before switch off and bed!
Monica
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AMBLY
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 4936
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Darn, shame about the 1851 neice bit - but I still bet they were - or at least little Ellen, was a Grandaughter belonging to their daughter Sarah....
I agree with you though, this certainley does feel 'right" that the 1851 mother and daughter are in the workhouse together 1861. What made me wonder about the name of the Head, "Emma" in 1851 - was seeing an Andrew in the workhouse 1861 - Emma/Andrew?? Maybe!
Did you notice !! I just did....
1871: The 19 yr old Neice - Mary DRUMMOND
1901: The baby Mary DRUMMOND in 1901 with Peter and Helen.
Big coincidence? ! 
I am actually peering half blind too!  I was just busy wondering if Peter Henderson, witness was Peter MORRISON's father - took me a good 5 minutes to twig on to that unlikelihood !
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 10295
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Emma/Andrew?? Henderson in 1851 would appear to have been James according to SP index search!
Monica
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aggiebagwash
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 713
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Thank you, thank you, thank you Ambly and Monica.
The only thing I have checked on SP so far is the 1851 and BINGO!
James Henderson 56 lab. (mason) Ireland
Mary Henderson 50 Ireland
Sarah Henderson 24 Edinburgh (Little hussy)
Mary Ann Duncanson 4 Stirling
Helen Duncanson 7 months Stirling
At least she had the decency to give them their fathers surname.
Going to have a look at the later censuses this afternoon.
Thank you once again
Margaret 
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