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Topic: Gleish? Records error? - COMPLETED (Read 1143 times)
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PrueM
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A quick glance at the 1841 census shows Marjory at home in Newtyle, under the surname LAMB, with (presumably) her father and brother. Father's name John, brother's name McPherson. The four McDonald children are also there, under the surname MCDONALD.
I can't immediately find Marjory or the children in 1851.
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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TunjiLees
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Dr. Oladipo James Olaore
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You believe Matthew was born in Kinross then? And that the date I have for his birth is incorrect?
Or should I raise this issue in the Kinross forum?
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TunjiLees
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Dr. Oladipo James Olaore
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Wow! I think you just found my first ggggg-grandparent! John Lamb! Great thanks!
According to FamilySearch, John Lamb was married to a Helen Siddie, but I cannot seem to find a record of this anywhere...
Also, according to FamilySearch, there were 3 children; Marjory Lamb; James Lamb; and McPherson Cunningham Lamb.
'I've snipped Helen's baptism entry from the Newtyle register page and posted it here' I'm sorry, what do you mean by this?
By the way, Helen's information I had already through research done by my great aunt, but the rest of the data is straight off FamilySearch.
Thank you for the help.
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PrueM
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Hi TunjiLees 
'I've snipped Helen's baptism entry from the Newtyle register page and posted it here' I'm sorry, what do you mean by this?
Sorry - I meant to attach the image to that posting, but forgot...have attached it to this one (hopefully!). I thought you might like to see the entry from the baptism register for yourself
To answer your other question, yes, I believe Matthew was born in Cleish, Kinross-shire. Post a lookup request on the Kinross board here on Rootschat, asking for help in tracing him. Bear in mind that the Matthew MCDONALD found by Isles earlier in the thread, born 1798 in Cleish, is probably him, given that there don't seem to be any other Matthew MCDONALDS in that batch of the IGI.
You could start a new topic on the Angus board asking for information about Marjorie Lamb and her parents etc. On both new topics you could give a link back to this topic, so people can see what research has already been done.
Good luck with your search!
Cheers
Prue
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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PrueM
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I had a look at what I think is the same census entry, Isles, but can't see young David...I've got:
Newbigging, Newtyle
John LAMB Head Widower 88 Recipient of Parish Relief, formerly Ag Lab. b. Forfarshire ... (can't read place name)
Marjory MCDONALD Daughter Widow 43 Yarn Winder. b. Forfarshire, Newtyle
James MCDONALD Grandson -- 16 Apprentice shoemaker. b. Forfarshire, Newtyle
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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TunjiLees
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Dr. Oladipo James Olaore
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That's good then, it seems as if Mat(t)hew Mcdonald was the one born in 1789. How would I go around confirming this?
Anyway, it appears that he was much older than Marjory Mcdonald, which is quite interesting.
There doesn't seem to be a listing of him in any census. His last child, David was born on March 11 1840, so I guess he could have passed away from 1839-1841.
Thanks for all the help PrueM & Isles.
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Forfarian
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I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
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The IGI lists four children to Matthew MacDonald and Marjory Lamb: Helen, James, John and David Anderson, all born in Newtyle between 1833 and 1840, and it lists Helen, James and David three times and John twice. Two of the listings for Helen, James and David, plus both listings for John are 'submitted' and therefore unreliable.
One listing for each of Helen, James and John is 'extracted' and therefore less unreliable. There is also an 'extracted' listing for John with mother's name given as May Lamb. May is a recognised abbreviation of Marjory.
So what has happened is that two LDS members have found the family and made up a family group sheet with the perfectly genuine baptism dates of the children. They have then assumed that Matthew was aged 30 when his first child was born, hence the estimated date of 1803. By similar logic they have assumed that Ma(rjor)y was born about 1807. They have also assumed that because his family were born in Angus, he too was born in Angus. So it would make perfect sense if his birthplace was in fact Cleish in Kinross-shire.
However two separate LDS members must have found what they thought was 'Gleish' so it might be worth having a look at the marriage and the children's baptisms, which you can do at modest cost at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
If you search the IGI for the marriage of Matthew MacDonald to a woman surnamed Lamb, you will find an 'extracted' entry telling you that Mathew McDonald and May Lamb were married in Newtyle on 29 November 1832.
In the 1841 census, Margory Lamb is living in the household of John Lamb in Newtyle with Helen, 8; James, 6; John, 4; and David, 1. It isn't uncommon for a married woman to turn up in the census under her maiden name. However it may just possibly suggest that she is widowed; and so far I have failed to find Matthew in either the 1841 or 1851 census.
HTH
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Researching
AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes; LESLIE, Mortlach; MENDUM, England; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOREY, New Monkland; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Lethnot and Navar; YOUNG, Keith
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Forfarian
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I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
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I had a look at the marriage certificate (attached it). The Gleish looks like a Cleish to me
No question about it. Look at the difference between the C of Cleish and the G of Glamis.
but that doesn't tell me much. There are no parents' names or dates of birth so it's pretty useless.
It's more than you get in some marriage records. They aften say only where the couple were living, not where they were born, so that's a bonus.
It also explains why the 'submitted' entries talk about Gleish, Angus. A classic example of why anything in the IGI must be followed up by referring to the original records.
It's a pity they don't have death certificates for that period, as I am sure I would have been able to find his place of birth and parents that way...
Indeed. But facts are chiels that winna ding. That is all that interested the Kirk in those days, so that's all you get.
Just be thankful that when they started civil registration in Scotland, they included the names of the deceased person's parents. You don't get that in English or Welsh death certificates at all.
Pity that Matthew didn't survive for another few years.
Do the children's baptism records mention the names of witnesses, and if so could any of the witnesses be relatives of Matthew? Does David's baptism say that Matthew was deceased?
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Researching
AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes; LESLIE, Mortlach; MENDUM, England; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOREY, New Monkland; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Lethnot and Navar; YOUNG, Keith
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PrueM
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Hi TunjiLees
Just a couple of quickies...
First, you'd better remove that image of the marriage register page - you are only allowed to post small portions of such things on Rootschat, otherwise the copyright editors will be onto you and will remove it for you!
Second, what you should do is go to Scotlands People website, and check the coverage for Cleish of the Old Parish Registers. If the registers they have imaged are complete for the period when you believe Matthew McDonald to have been born, then you can assume that the Matthew McDonald born/baptised in 1789 in Cleish is probably your man, if there are no others born in the parish across the years you are interested in, and the registers are complete for that time.
Hope that made sense 
Prue
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Paper and Photograph Conservator
I live in NSW, and am researching:
BALFOUR (Derry) BIGG (Kent) BONSALL (DBY, NTT, CHS) BRISBANE (Fife) DANKS (STS) DOBSON (BRK) FRANCIS (ESS) GOODE (HAM) HAYNES (Cork) INGRAM (MDX, SOM) LANGWORTHY (Jersey, DEV) MCKAY (Fife, Aberdeen, Banff, Moray, Inverness) MORRISH (LND) NANCARROW (CON) OGILVIE (Moray, LND) STRATHDEE (Banff) SWAN (Fife) WOOD (LND)
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TunjiLees
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Dr. Oladipo James Olaore
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On http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/famrec/hlpsrch/opr-cov.html it says that the death and burials from Cleish are covered from 1828-58, however those would have to be consulted at the General Register Office.
On ScotlandsPeople search, there are only three McDonalds born in Cleish in the entire 'Births & Baptisms 1553-1854'.
Only one of these is a Mathew. (1789)
All three of the Cleish McDonalds are born between 1787 and 1789 which probably means they are siblings.
Also, in http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,283370.15.html I was asking how come there is no Marjory, Margory or May Lamb born in all of Angus between 1800 and 1815.
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Forfarian
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I HAVE edited my profile - several times!
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On ScotlandsPeople search, there are only three McDonalds born in Creish in the entire 'Births & Baptisms 1553-1854'. Only one of these is a Mathew. (1789). All three of the Creish McDonalds are born between 1787 and 1789 which probably means they are siblings.
It's Cleish with an L, not Creish with an R!
The IGI lists five baptisms of M(a)cDonalds in Cleish around that time, all 'extracted' from the parish register.
You get these by looking up Matthew's baptism in 1789, then going to the detailed screen which tells you that his parents are John McDonald and Janet Rutherford.
Click on the 'Batch No' C114602 at lower right. This will produce a search screen with just that number pre-entered. Put McDonald in the surname box and search. This produces five McDonalds baptised in Cleish between 1787 and 1819, two to John McDonald and Ann Blackwood, and one each to Archibald MacDonald and Elizabeth Inglis and to James MacDonald and Catharine Paterson, plus Matthew as above. You can find all of them in the SP index.
So in spite of three being born fairly close together, they are not all siblings.
The reason you only found three of them on SP is that the two later ones spell their surnames MacDonald not McDonald. The IGI recognises this, but on SP you need to use a wildcard for all names beginning Mac or Mc because even Soundex doesn't always find Macs when you input Mc.
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Researching
AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes; LESLIE, Mortlach; MENDUM, England; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOREY, New Monkland; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Lethnot and Navar; YOUNG, Keith
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Helen-McDonald-1833-baptism.jpg
) of Newtyle I found: