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Topic: licences (Read 637 times)
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tobin
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 82
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: licences
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 13 February 08 18:41 GMT (UK) » |
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hi
thankyou to all that answered and i will try both links and see if i can find anything.
maybe someone out there will give me an idea of what else to try,as im at a brickwall and am spending many hours banging my head off it in frustration.
my 3x maternal grandfather was nathaniel hall,his marriage cert to catherine turnbull dates his age to being born 1829,his death cert also backs this as do all the census entrys for him from 1861 but he doesnt appear on any census prior to his marriage,place of birth newcastle upon tyne,in his marriage cert he names his father as nathaniel hall a butcher.this is where my troubles begin i think that his father is nathaniel hall a butcher living in newcastle born gosforth 1804 as i cant find any other nathaniel halls who are butchers around this time.there is a marriage for a nathaniel hall and ann hackworth in november 1829 as i previously said,but if his birth year of 1829 is correct then ann was either heavily pregnant or had already given birth.i can find no baptism entry for nathaniel in 1829 or surrounding years in any of the church records for newcastle,though there is an entry for a edward pearson hall son of nathaniel and ann in 1830,and two other children thomas and isabella both children of nathaniel and ann (i have there birth certs) born later,by 1841 census nathaniel snr is a widower and the three children edward thomas and isabella can all be found with various family members.nathaniel snr never remarried and died 1869,but i cant tie nathaniel 1829 with this family or any other family.and im at a loss where to check next or where else i could look for any answers or clues.if the marriage licence gave details of occupations that could narrow it down to whether nathaniel was a butcher.in the baptism entry for edward pearson hall in 1830 it states a victualler,would a butcher be classed as this??though by the 1841 census nathaniel snrs occupation is agent?
hope this makes sense and someone out there can point me in a direction that could give me a clue,before i completely lose it....
many thanks pat
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hall,bowey,turnbull,danby -northumberland
speechley,lakey,ayres,anker,bedford -cambs and huntingdon
warrener and cope -nottingham
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Michael Dixon
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1621
I've not edited my PROFILE yet
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Re: licences
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 13 February 08 19:39 GMT (UK) » |
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Pat,
Working backwards from an age on a marriage cert or a census , to determine a year of birth , can be out by a year, even if the original age starting point correct !
Depends in which month of year the birth took place and the marriage/census !
e.g.
Man marries July 1854 . His age is recorded simply as 25 years of age.
As well as been born in 1829, ( 1854 minus 25 years) he could have been born in late 1828
If he was born, say December 1828 he would have been 25 years and 7 months when he married (and various variations).
Michael Dixon
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Names.
Gallagher ( + variations).
Areas. Co Sligo, Co Leitrim, Co Mayo Ireland.
Ontario, Canada,
Lowell, Ma, USA
Co Northumberland, Co Durham, England.
Dixon
Cumberland.. Brampton, Carlisle
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tobin
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 82
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: licences
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 13 February 08 20:01 GMT (UK) » |
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hi
thanks for your reply,i have checked a couple of years either side of 1829 to see if there is anything but as yet nothing,ive even put in just a first name in ancestry place of birth and year to see if it brings up anything for 1841/51 census but again nothing that fits.
pat
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hall,bowey,turnbull,danby -northumberland
speechley,lakey,ayres,anker,bedford -cambs and huntingdon
warrener and cope -nottingham
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peter brownlee
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 70
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: licences
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 13 February 08 21:40 GMT (UK) » |
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If this is of any help, the 1861 census expands the elder Nathaniel's occupation to Commision Agent that is a posh variety of bookie. The head of the household in which he seems to have lived most of his later life is his unmarried half sister Elizabeth Davison. In 1871 he is described as a cow keeper like his half brother Cuthbert. Prudhoe street is in the middle of the town of Newcastle so they must have been urban cowkeepers. The most likely thing is that they leased grazing for their cows from the Freemen on the town moor which lies between Newcastle and Gosforth. My father worked for a milkman who kept beasts there in the 1930s. In Nathaniel's day it was also a venue for sporting occasions. So far as I know, the profession of victualler is usually applied to suppliers of ship's food stores, which would largely be salt meat.
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tobin
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 82
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: licences
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 13 February 08 22:18 GMT (UK) » |
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hi
thanks for that i did wonder what the agent and commission agent meant.i had noticed that he always lived with his half brother and sister,and he did up until his death never remarrying which i found rather odd for a man with small children,especially when the wife died before 1841 so the children would have been very small.
i guess the occupation of victualler could fit in with his first occupation of butcher.any idea what sort of area prudhoe street would have been?would they be classed as well off?im just wondering if there was a will?
pat
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hall,bowey,turnbull,danby -northumberland
speechley,lakey,ayres,anker,bedford -cambs and huntingdon
warrener and cope -nottingham
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stanmapstone
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3857
My answers only refer to England and Wales
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Re: licences
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 13 February 08 22:54 GMT (UK) » |
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There were at least three types of Commission Agent: A Turf Commission Agent who placed bets on behalf of owners or trainers with bookmakers or turf accountants, and who also may have placed bets for members of the general public.
A Commercial Commission Agent who represented and took orders for a firm or firms in a particular town or district, worked on his own account, on a commission basis, or as an employee of one firm on a salary and commission. An Insurance Agent who represented an insurance company, or a number of companies, in a particular town or district, who secured new policies and Collected premiums, etc. on a commission basis.
Stan
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Mapstone, Mapston. Sunderland, Somerset
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peter brownlee
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 70
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: licences
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 13 February 08 23:27 GMT (UK) » |
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Prudhoe St lay just outside the old town wall and was described in 1830 as one of the newly built improvements. However it lay only a short walk from the nearest access to the open grazing of the town moor. It still exists, but has been overwhelmed by the giant Eldon Square shopping mall built over it. That nearest part of the town moor is now occupied by St James Park, the Newcastle United stadium. The cows still graze the moor beyond though.
I notice the grandson John N was born in Middlesborough. Could Nathaniel the ygr have been living there, perhaps with a married sister?
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tobin
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 82
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: licences
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 14 February 08 11:29 GMT (UK) » |
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hi
thanks for reply
i have tried looking further afield for nathaniel but the only one that matches age is in the 1841 census and there is a nathaniel hall of the right age in middlesex with a fanny hall aged 70,but of course the census doesnt say where he is from just says no not from the county the same as fannys entry.
i have spoken to durham university and am waiting to hear if the marriage licence bond and allegation has survived,and see what info it has,i know this will tell me nothing about nathaniel jnr but im hoping that it will in some way tell me that it is his parents,so im not running around on a wild goose chase.
any ideas where wills are kept or newspapers from the time and area that might have nathaniel snrs death.he died 1869.i live in cambridgeshire and have never been to newcastle or to be honest know anything about the place,i was totally ignorant to the fact that my maternal line had such strong ties there till i started my tree
thanks patsy
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hall,bowey,turnbull,danby -northumberland
speechley,lakey,ayres,anker,bedford -cambs and huntingdon
warrener and cope -nottingham
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peter brownlee
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 70
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Re: licences
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 14 February 08 11:51 GMT (UK) » |
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It just occurred to me after I closed down that in 1861 two doors away in Prudhoe St, was another Davison family. Davison is a very common name in the NE but it's possible they were related. I can't make out the widowed father's occupation for sure. It looks like waiter over a crossed out domestic servant. However the son Thomas aged 24 is a seaman. Could young Nathaniel have gone to sea also? Could that have been the reason for his choice of the rope making business?
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stanmapstone
RootsChat Marquessate
Online
Posts: 3857
My answers only refer to England and Wales
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Re: licences
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 14 February 08 15:33 GMT (UK) » |
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hi
any ideas where wills are kept or newspapers from the time and area that might have nathaniel snrs death.he died 1869.i live in cambridgeshire and have never been to newcastle or to be honest know anything about the place,i was totally ignorant to the fact that my maternal line had such strong ties there till i started my tree
thanks patsy
You can get copies of wills, from 1858, at
The Postal Searches & Copies Dept, York Probate Sub-Registry, Castle
Chambers, Clifford Street, York, YO1 9RG. You can download an application form at
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/pa1s_0405.pdf
Stan
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Mapstone, Mapston. Sunderland, Somerset
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