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Topic: Dunbar-Hill Help needed (Read 865 times)
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bedfordshire boy
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In 1891 she is shown as Frances M Hill 49 widow born London.
Her daughter Frances Clementina Hill married Thomas Carson in Bedford registration district in Sept quarter 1890 vol 3b page 627. Her marriage certificate should give her father's name. The daughter appears to have been born in the June 1874 quarter in Greenwich reg district vol 1d page 854. This certificate would be of more use than her marriage cert.
How do you know the mother's maiden name was Dunbar?
I can't find her marriage to Mr Hill
In 1881 I can see a Francis (sic) Hill niece 6 born Brockley living in Walworth with William & Harriett Brockwell, which may be the daughter.
in 1901 RG13/3224 folio 123A
44 Church St, Derby
Frances Carson wife 26 b New Cross Brockley
Lillian Carson dau 9 b Kempston
Mary E Carson dau 3 b Derby
Frances M Hill mother in law 60 parish relief b Bermondsey
(no head of family is shown)
Finally found her in 1881
142 Albany Rd, Camberwell, Surrey
Frances Hill head widow 40 b Southwark
Thomas Hill son 3 b Peckham
Mary Ann Brockwell niece 16 b b Newington
So it looks as though Harriett Brockwell may have been the sister of Frances's late husband (there's a marriage on Free BMD in 1851 in Lambeth where two of the parties on the page are William Charles Brockwell and Harriet Elizabeth Hill)
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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susan p
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Hi,
Thanks for your reply will send for her marriage and birth certs
The name Frances Dunbar-Hill was passed on to us through Lillian I presume the Lillian on the 1901 census!
Thanks again now I have some thing to work on.
Susan
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Henrici Durham,Henderson,sunderland,durham
Buckenham Norfolk/suffolk,Beveridge,McQueen,Brownleescotland.Crackwell,Suffolk,
mothersole Suffolk
Gibson Sedgefield Durham
Evans Shropshire/Northormesby,Tadman
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yonderpeasant
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this one is well worth looking at the husband is Thomas C same as son of Frances in 1891
1871
6 Canterbury Villas Lambeth st Mary Brixton RG10/687/5/2
Thomas C Dunbar head mar 45 Lt on half pay b.Cape Good Hope
Caroline A Dunbar wife mar 40 b.India Bengal
Richard t dunbar son 15 merchants clerk do
Matilda D Dunbar daur 13 scholar b. do
Frances E Dunbar daur 6 do b.St Georges Pimlico
Clement a Dunbar son under 1 month b. St Matthew Brixton
Frances M Hill servant 29 general servant ( no indication as to marital status given)
b.Bermondsey
Anne Haydon nurse mar 34 monthly nurse b.West Walton Norfolk
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This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRidgway. Salop.Lancs.Stoke on Trent. Colclough.Ackley.Adams.Harris.James Longton Stoke on trent Staffs. Scholes.Collinge Middleton Lancs. Gogerty.Deavonporte Salop. |
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bedfordshire boy
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Having looked at this for half the afternoon (it was better than talking to the ex wife who was visiting!) I question whether she was Frances Dunbar. There's no birth of a Frances Dunbar, nor a marriage (to anyone, let alone Mr Hill), nor any Dunbars worth speaking of south of the river in London in 1841 or 1851.
Her census ages give a birth of 1841/2
A Harriot Elizabeth Hill is on the IGI baptised at St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey 6 April 1828, daughter of Rowland Hill and Elizabeth (was he the post office man I wonder?), and in 1861 the eldest son of William and Harriet Brockwell was Roland Brockwell, so it looks as though this is the right baptism.
Interestingly Rowland and Elizabeth Hill also baptised Frances Margaret Hill, same church, on 19 June 1842.
What odds that Frances was telling porkies to the census enumerators when she said she was a widow? She may have been unmarried
David
Since typing the above that yonder peasant has come up with a very interesting scenario! It looks as though there might have been a bit of extra marital going on with Frances the servant (Caroline Dunbar may have died of course)
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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yonderpeasant
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it has been driving me mad too beds boy!
1851Surrey Newington St Peter Walworth HO107/1567/868/6
Rowland Hill head wid 45 leather dresser b.Surrey Bermondsey
Harriet Brockwell daur mar 23 painters wife do
George Hill son U Potman do
William Hill son U 18 Floor cloth printer do
Richard Hill son 14 scholar do
Sarah Hill daur 11 do
Fanny Hill daur 9 do
Henry Hill son 7 do
Rowland Hill son 4 b.surrey Newington
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This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRidgway. Salop.Lancs.Stoke on Trent. Colclough.Ackley.Adams.Harris.James Longton Stoke on trent Staffs. Scholes.Collinge Middleton Lancs. Gogerty.Deavonporte Salop. |
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bedfordshire boy
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Some might think it surprising that it didn't occur to me to look for Fanny Hill in 1851! That pretty comprehensively proves the relationships I think. Very civilised of Harriet to have stayed with dad just after she'd got married.
I think the detour through Kempston in 1891 must have been as result of son-in-law Thomas Carson's occupation as a soldier. Kempston barracks was built in 1874-6 for the 16th Regiment of Foot, and in 1881, it became the Depot of the Bedfordshire Regiment.
David
"her husband was a gentleman (whatever that means)" - I fear he was no gentleman, and not her husband either!
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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yonderpeasant
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yes there is a suspicioius military theme to this mystery
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This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukRidgway. Salop.Lancs.Stoke on Trent. Colclough.Ackley.Adams.Harris.James Longton Stoke on trent Staffs. Scholes.Collinge Middleton Lancs. Gogerty.Deavonporte Salop. |
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bedfordshire boy
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Odd that one of the Dunbar children was also a Clement
Where did this information come from Susan?
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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bedfordshire boy
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The fact that her birth was registered as Frances Clementina D HILL speaks volumes. (was the D for Dunbar, giving a big clue as to the father?). It will be interesting to see if a father is named on the birth certificate. Her marriage cert is a different matter as a father's name was often invented to hide illegitimacy, making life complicated for 21st century genealogists.
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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bedfordshire boy
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There's a death of Thomas Clement Dunbar age 71 in March 1896 in Holborn. Is this where Clementina comes from (and more subtle than Thomasina)?
It might be interesting to see if he left a will and whether any illegitimate children are mentioned
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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bedfordshire boy
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Glad you posted this on the Beds board Susan - notwithstanding, as it turns out, that the Beds involvement was probably merely being stationed at Kempston barracks for a year or two. One of the more interesting/challenging queries!
I'm off now down to the bistro hopefully, between us all, leaving no loose ends
David
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukBeds: Cople: Luke/Spencer Everton: Hale Henlow: Cooper/Watts/Sabey Potton: Merrill Southill: Faulkner/Litchfield/Sabey Woburn/Husborne Crawley: Surkitt Hunts: Gt Gransden: Merrill/Chandler/Medlock Toseland: Surkitt/Hedge/Corn Cambs: Bourn: Bowd Eltisley: Medlock Graveley: Ford/Revell |
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janan
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Hi
Interesting thread, hope that certificate comes up trumps 
Jan 
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ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM www.nationalarchives.gov.ukbedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell buckinghamshire- pain cambridgeshire- bird, carver hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey derbyshire- allsop, noon devon - griffin, love, rapsey dorset- rendall, gale somerset- rendall, churchill surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge |
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