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Topic: Are they gypsies? (Read 2793 times)
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wood_gnome
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 28
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi Cathayb, I had message from someone today his GGGGrandfather was my GGGGrandfather's brother and he was called John Taylor Vickers and his Daughter was called Mary Ann Taylor Vickers, Her mother was called Matilda Bilton she was born in York and John Taylor Vickers was born in Holbeck, Leeds. I said to my wife last night I'm gutted, I've just found out my Father's a gypsy, she said why you always knew you were half gypsy I said that it was because my Father who is dead now kept it hidden for all those years and I never new a thing I said I'm 60 years old and I've just found out when my Mother whose 81 now knew all the time and never said a word. My Brothers and Sisters are all proud to be Gypsies my Mother said my Father's family were that poverty stricken she thinks that he thought if people didn't know he was a gypsy he'd be better off. Paul.
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Vickers, Hunter, Stewart, Allen,Taylor, Page, Galloway, Jowett, Croft, Stocks, Harrison, Furbank, Grey -
Yorkshire
Banks, Stewart, Allen, McHugh, Bluett, Casey - Lancashire
Hunter,Stewart, Armstrong - Cumbria
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CatOne
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4818
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Hi,
You say you don't have anything on Constance Grey?
is this them in 1871? Enumerated as "Steward" Not sure  -
1871 RG10/4275 Folio 58 Page 25
Allhallowgate, Ripon, Yorks
George Steward 35 Broom Maker Cumberland Penrith
Constance 26 Cambridge NK
Emily 6 Scholar Lancs Colne
John 3 Scholar Lancs Clitheroe
Charles 2 Yorks Otley
Isabella 2 mo Ripon
Marriage -
George Stewart March 1864 Skipton Vol 9a Page 58
Brides - Constance Grey or Mary Ann Moorhouse
The marriage cert should hopefully give her fathers name and occupation?
Regards
Cat 
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Dunning/Downing, Osborn/e, Astley -Cheshire/Birmingham/Middlesex Fanthorpe/Hall/Driffill/Storm - Lincolnshire Bower/Woodward/Bingham/Pettinger/Shaw - Nottinghamshire Shaw, Marland - Lancashire Broph(e)y - Queens County, Ireland Richards - Neath Swansea Hunt/Fox - Lincs, Waterfield/Middleton - Staffs Hart/Harland/Askew/Scales - Yorkshire Brereton/Vickers - Cheshire Gleaves/Sandford/Hulse/Hulme - Wolstanton/Audley Staffs Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov |
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wood_gnome
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 28
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi CatOne, yes I got the info off someone who contacted me on Genes reunited she was looking for Albert George Vickers born the same year as my Grandad but my Grandad was called George Albert Vickers and mine was born in Holbeck, Leeds but on her family tree she had George Stewart's Brother and she gave me the info on the Marriage Certificate so I could get a copy. But thank you for your time. Paul.
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Vickers, Hunter, Stewart, Allen,Taylor, Page, Galloway, Jowett, Croft, Stocks, Harrison, Furbank, Grey -
Yorkshire
Banks, Stewart, Allen, McHugh, Bluett, Casey - Lancashire
Hunter,Stewart, Armstrong - Cumbria
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tiggi
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 343
BETSEY SMITH/ WIFE OF NELSON BUCKLAND
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Can i just say a little about your topic
Romani or Gypsy who are we really ? There isn;t a country called Gypsyland or Romaniland ?
The name gypsy wasn;t our choosing but called to us by the gaji Why ? Because they didn;t know how else to describe the unusual sight of people so dark and mysterious and that lived originally in tents not caravans as most believe, that came much later, they wore bright vivid colors and spoke a strange tongue imagine how you would think if you saw them for the very first time how would you describe them ?
The first were so dark almost black in color.
People had never seen the like of before, as the centuries went by they married into many families and now we have blonde blue eyed etc but the true ones were dark and dark eyed exotic in looks.
They were always thought to be un- christian having no belief in God Why ? again because if they didn;t comply with the people of the land they lived in that was seen as very wrong how could these people believe in any religion after the way they were treated and what they saw done to people in the name of religion,that subject has caused more wars than anything else.
Way Way back before we can imagine there was in every country a tribe of people who chose to ROAM rather than be like everyone else and live in a house. this is where the word Romani derives .
From these tribes come all our families from across the world they were unwelcomed where ever they went because they didn;t comply to the norm
Amazingly we will find more about them than your average person why because people were fascinated by them, they could live without all the comforts of a brick dwelling and survive so much is wrote of them more so than ordinary people it just means you have to look, not just census records try newspapers there is a huge amount written about gypises or romani through the years.
Unfortnately like any people there is good and bad amongst them and mostly you will only hear or be told the bad , but hey the gaji did far worst than the romani people ever did.
I will say this people even today consider us all the same but it is very annoying to be classed as one we are not , many have gone under the pretence of being a gypsy and they have no right to claim that, thats why lots of the old ones get annoyed or won;t speak about it.
In the old days the tribe was ruled by each family usually the elder member.
Some families joined especially through marriage which again they believed strongly that they should keep the line true by only marrying into the families of the true blood.
They had their own rules and laws which they did use, as for Kings & Queens noo that was done for the gaji benefit, it helped to give them status not just among themselves as a sign of respect but the gaji liked the idea of royalty if it meant they could camp without being bothered great.
They had a council of the higher ranking men etc and these ruled the tribes, but there was a leader who's word was always obeyed by all.
The women were the workers not the men although they did do work the woman did much more than just keep the family clean and fed, it wasn;t for men to bring up children or do the chores never that wasn;t allowed.
It was a great delight for a gypsy man to have a daughter it ment he would gain wealth when she married, a son would mean he had to pay not so good.
The one thing I admire about all the true Romani is the fact they could change their trade and make money where no other man could, the sad part is that they lived by natures rules so much has been lost through the years about living off the land how many today would know if they walked along a real country lane what wood was good for things or which plants they could eat or use as medicines this is what we are losing as a hertiage.
I am very proud to admit my family were of these people and only wish I could have know them better sadly most have gone now like the true families it has all died.
Why did they move so much over the years it wasn;t just they followed the seasons for work on the farms in the early days they were a cheap labour force with no outlay for living expenses and most families were welcomed by the farmers year a upon year, until machinery came, then it all changed they had to find other ways to make money which they did very well, but many caused trouble many were when brought to court called vagabonds and rogues this law goes back to before 1700s which gave the judge powers to imprison and even have them killed or transported, so what choice did they have but to move on quickly
Another thing I have found too I always thought they called children after their parents as a sign of respect , how wrong it was done for a much more crafty reason, many had the same name so as to confuse the law if they were caught for what ever hard to prove if you have 6 called same name which one is guilty and as most gaji couldn;t tell them apart it made it even easier to decive
Anyway this is only my opinons hope it helps to clear up some things
My favourite quote is from my own Great- Great Grandfather he said :
We are children of Nature it seems hard we cannot live on forever among the grasses and woods changing our tents from season to season to follow the summer sun.
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TENETT BUCKLAND & PLATO BUCKLAND ( MY LINEAGE)
SMITH JAMES STANLEY LOVELL LEE PENFOLD ORCHARD BOSWELL BROADWAY
AREAS OF INTEREST CORNWALL DEVON USA
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wood_gnome
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 28
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Hi tiggi, I agree wholeheartedly with everthing you have said. Paul.
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Vickers, Hunter, Stewart, Allen,Taylor, Page, Galloway, Jowett, Croft, Stocks, Harrison, Furbank, Grey -
Yorkshire
Banks, Stewart, Allen, McHugh, Bluett, Casey - Lancashire
Hunter,Stewart, Armstrong - Cumbria
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tiggi
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 343
BETSEY SMITH/ WIFE OF NELSON BUCKLAND
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Hi paul
thank you for your comment, I know it was a long post lol but I feel so strong about it.
I like you knew nothing of my rich hertiage until I was grown my family kept it hidden as best as they could, which when I questioned it, was told mostly for reasons that Gypsies were thought of as bad people, even today that is still very much the problem, but now there is more mixed tribes and like I said the true ones are really gone, so many stories were wrote about them being bad, unclean, uneducated, true most couldn;t read or write , but they survived on their wits,
I would say much better than your average gaji.
My Family went to usa looking for a better life some stayed some returned believe me it wasn;t any better over there for them in early years.
I do have some wonderful stories I have found about many tribes going over to USA I would say this anyone looking for an ancestor in Uk if you can;t find them look in USa Canada or even prison records as much as you may not want to think it they did often get arrested for lots of things .
I also know that in the early years many gypsies were actually used like the Slaves to work on plantations, so another area to check, also many were sent to Austrilia via transportion gain another area to search.
The most enjoyable thing I find is if you are lucky enough to find any Photos or drawings of your family that is a magic find, as they didn;t really keep detailed family albums as we may today
Anyway thnk you for listening to me
sandy
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TENETT BUCKLAND & PLATO BUCKLAND ( MY LINEAGE)
SMITH JAMES STANLEY LOVELL LEE PENFOLD ORCHARD BOSWELL BROADWAY
AREAS OF INTEREST CORNWALL DEVON USA
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honey-roma88
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 270
Grandad Cecil
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Hi paul
thank you for your comment, I know it was a long post lol but I feel so strong about it.
I like you knew nothing of my rich hertiage until I was grown my family kept it hidden as best as they could, which when I questioned it, was told mostly for reasons that Gypsies were thought of as bad people, even today that is still very much the problem, but now there is more mixed tribes and like I said the true ones are really gone, so many stories were wrote about them being bad, unclean, uneducated, true most couldn;t read or write , but they survived on their wits,
I would say much better than your average gaji.
My Family went to usa looking for a better life some stayed some returned believe me it wasn;t any better over there for them in early years.
I do have some wonderful stories I have found about many tribes going over to USA I would say this anyone looking for an ancestor in Uk if you can;t find them look in USa Canada or even prison records as much as you may not want to think it they did often get arrested for lots of things .
I also know that in the early years many gypsies were actually used like the Slaves to work on plantations, so another area to check, also many were sent to Austrilia via transportion gain another area to search.
The most enjoyable thing I find is if you are lucky enough to find any Photos or drawings of your family that is a magic find, as they didn;t really keep detailed family albums as we may today
Anyway thnk you for listening to me
sandy
I agree.
As for photos I was once contacted by someone who was related to me via my Munday Romani line and said his aunt had had photos of the family in their caravan on her wall when he was small but sadly he had no idea what had happened to them.  I would have loved to have seen those photos, I only have photos of my Romani family once they settled. Even once they had settled they carried on marrying within the blood as much as possible (although not always of course).
My family were the same about keeping the fact they were Romani quiet. In one of my half-breed g grandmothers she was always told that her mother's dark looks were the result of an affair with the Italian lodger. Both her parents were about half-Romani/traveller (her father was 1/2 Romani, 1/2 Jewish - my avatar - and her mother was 1/2 Romani, 1/2 English/Romani).
They kept a wheel in the garden but her father who was previously a rag & bone man was made by his wife (who was more Romani than him) to stop and become a labourer (I only found this out the other day) which she considered more respectable but as soon as she died he got his barrow out.
My family are proud of their roots now, I would hate for my ancestors to think I was ever ashamed of who they were.
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Romany/Traveller:
BLACKMAN, BUCKLAND, BURGESS, DIX, DOBSON, FOLEY, GRANT/PARKER, HUNT, JONES, MUNDAY/MONDAY, MORGAN, NOYELL, ORCHARD, PAGE, REED, VINCENT
Jewish:
BRAHAM, FROST, LYONS
French:
HONEYSETT, LEVETT PETTIT
English:
BELSHAW, BETTSWORTH, CANE, COVENTRY, DOBSON, FRY, NURSE, POOK, PUTLAND, PUTT, SMITH, SNELGROVE, TEE, TUDGAY, VENUS/VENESS
Irish:
ANDERSON, KILLOUGH, MACCORMACK, MACROBERTS, MORTON, MOORE, WALLACE
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tiggi
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 343
BETSEY SMITH/ WIFE OF NELSON BUCKLAND
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Hi
I know of many families including my own relations, that when eventually the old ones have died all their photos anything to do with them ever being a Romani was destroyed. So sad and only excuse is because they married into gaji money.
I asked once, why to a family would they did this and was told, Its cos we don;t want people to know about us, they look down on us if they think we are gypsies, we live in a house now like the gaji and if they knew they would treat us different , this was from a person who had married into a gypsy family, being a gaji they wanted to hide any knowledge of their ancestors roots, so sad , destroyed wonderful photos of wagons, true blood family imagines and all because they felt ashamed to admit their roots .
This to me is such a waste, the photos especially cannot be replaced, they arent's just a imagine of people that were in your family but a historical memory of how they lived .
I have some wonderful collections of my own family now, it was the most magical moment to see members of my family long gone but wow the strong looks were so easy to see in the generations today even my own children.
I have told my own children if they don't wish to know ( never happen lol) I have said to give it to a museum, let be found for someone who does want to know and that would be my advice to anyone don't destroy them give it away you don;t even have to say who you are, but please don;t destroy those memories.
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TENETT BUCKLAND & PLATO BUCKLAND ( MY LINEAGE)
SMITH JAMES STANLEY LOVELL LEE PENFOLD ORCHARD BOSWELL BROADWAY
AREAS OF INTEREST CORNWALL DEVON USA
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honey-roma88
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 270
Grandad Cecil
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tiggi - I'm just the same, I have scanned every photo I own of my family just in case anything happens to the original. Once my grandmother dies the ancestor's photos are all I wish to inherit.
I only have one photo I think when they are still travelling, it used to be my avatar. It was of my ggg grandmother just before her marriage when she was just 14/15.
I hope my family never destroyed photos of themselves out of shame but of course I will never know.
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Romany/Traveller:
BLACKMAN, BUCKLAND, BURGESS, DIX, DOBSON, FOLEY, GRANT/PARKER, HUNT, JONES, MUNDAY/MONDAY, MORGAN, NOYELL, ORCHARD, PAGE, REED, VINCENT
Jewish:
BRAHAM, FROST, LYONS
French:
HONEYSETT, LEVETT PETTIT
English:
BELSHAW, BETTSWORTH, CANE, COVENTRY, DOBSON, FRY, NURSE, POOK, PUTLAND, PUTT, SMITH, SNELGROVE, TEE, TUDGAY, VENUS/VENESS
Irish:
ANDERSON, KILLOUGH, MACCORMACK, MACROBERTS, MORTON, MOORE, WALLACE
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nashua
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 383
Violet Annie Jones
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Hi Tiggi & Honey-Roma. I see you both have Bucklands in your tree. I have an Elizabeth Emily Buckland born around 1877 who is a mystery to me and wondered if you had any knowledge of this family.
She married Philip Albert Jones in 1896 in Bristol, naming her father as John, a hawker. I have been unable to trace a birth registration for her. She is in the 1901 census in Bristol living with her 2 children, but no husband. Later that year both her and her husband were charged with neglect & the children put in a workhouse
In 1901 there was a John age 68 & Fanny Buckland age 63 living next to Elizabeth, with adult children Henry, Joshua & Rose all saying born Bristol, I have traced this family back to 1871 and they had other children Percy, Joseph, Jenty, Minnie, Adolphus,Sarah, Cinderella, Circender, Emmily, Motte, Walter, William. The birth place of John is given most years as Oxford, Berkshire. Some years they were in caravans and some in houses but always in Bristol.
Their is no mention of Elizabeth Emily, the nearest in age would be Sarah, which has confused me.
I would really appreciate your advices if you have any knowledge of this family
Nashua
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Jones, Crinks, Buckland - Bristol
Cook, Curtis, Bishop - Wilts
Betty, Bishop - Glos
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tiggi
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 343
BETSEY SMITH/ WIFE OF NELSON BUCKLAND
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Hi Nashua
Like most families there are lots of Branches,I have taken note of what you have posted, and will have alook for them My own Bucklands came from Oxfordshire, but also at times mentioned Bristol, if you know Bristol Gloucester Road was well known for Gypsies, I know my familty did go to USA and settled there some did return to UK , but then settled in Devon cornwall area.
Some names do pop out at me like Jenty ( this was Gentilla orginally the church would not recgonise it as a name for obvious reasons so it got changed can be spelt Jenty Genty or even Jennie)
Adolphus was another, I have had somesome contact me about a Nelson Buckland who came from Bristol think family still there today, it maybe relations to your family, i know that someone again has mentioned 2 brothers Adolphus & John ( sounds like your names) that went into Fair rides. Motte was also used by Williams family as name .
Its also possible your family came from a Plato Buckland known to travel and marry into Williams & Fletchers some of children's names you mentioned sound like them, he was from Buckinghamshire area lots of Bucklands related to him.
Point of interest :
The families didn;t always live in Caravans usually only when they traveled most were senisble and bought property
which would be their winter homes and also an investment
also did you know that families often used alias some used parents grandparents surnames.
Stangely I do have a Census when my own family are traveling with a family : I would guess that Mary Howard was married to a Jones for her daughter to use the name:
1881 Census Tavistock Cornwall Caravans Petericks Ground
Mary Howard born 1824 aged 57 Head Tavistock ( fruit seller & coster)
Jane Jones/Dann born 1846 aged 35 daughter Tavistock
Emily Dann born 1868 aged 13 grand-daughter Tavistock
William Thomas Dann born 1871 aged 10 grand-son Tavistock
Jane Jones/Dann husband is actually in 1st foot Reg Devonshire at this time
I will look for you see what I can find I would also suggest 2 things try doing a Scavenger hunt on here ask about it to Tephra its a really good way of finding info
alos go look at romanygenes site its has lots of info there about many families and again you could post a message might bring you some luck
happy hunting Nashua and what a lovely name
sandy
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TENETT BUCKLAND & PLATO BUCKLAND ( MY LINEAGE)
SMITH JAMES STANLEY LOVELL LEE PENFOLD ORCHARD BOSWELL BROADWAY
AREAS OF INTEREST CORNWALL DEVON USA
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