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Author Topic: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.  (Read 3558 times)
deb usa
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #210 on: Friday 14 March 08 15:00 GMT (UK) »

Hi Pat

Have gone through marriages ... cannot see any .... The only susannah that pops up is Susanna Plowman (1854 marriage) ... I looked for marriages of a susanna palmer to a mr. Plowman ... nothing ....

deb  Undecided Cry
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
cathayb
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #211 on: Friday 14 March 08 15:08 GMT (UK) »

just a bit og gen.the rabbis didnt have to inform the english registrars of a jewish marriage until 1845 so unlikely to find a marriage befor then.the other thing is you will get a marriage cert previous to that at the beth din london but it will be in hebrew and there is a fee.the only good thing is that though it will have their jewish names on it,it should also have their english names.have you noticed on jewish certs they include the jewish names near the bottom of cert?a jewish marriage is a complicatd affair.they would not only have to produce bith certs but proof of perants marriage aswell and proof that the perants and they were jewish or produce jewish conversion cert.a mixed marriage is not allowed.they would have to prove conversion.there woukld also be a contract set up between the man and woman at the ceremony.  cathayb
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birchs taylors penfold orchard hughes all romany gypsies in the west country
cathayb
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #212 on: Friday 14 March 08 15:11 GMT (UK) »

bearing all that in mind its quite easy to see why there may not have been a legal marriage particularly if an uncle was not keeping a close eye on his nephews or neices here without their perants.and were they born in this country anyway?both of them?
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birchs taylors penfold orchard hughes all romany gypsies in the west country
patrish
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #213 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:01 GMT (UK) »

Both born in Whitechapel




Cathayb  this is  an extract from the researcher at the Beth din.

"I am sorry to report that although I searched the registers of all the Ashkenazic Orthodox synagogues serving London in th 1850's whose secretaries had the authority to perform marriages, I did not come across the Phillips-Palmer entry you require"

While is could be that this couple had a "stille huppah" (lit.silent canopy) i.e a ceremony under private religious auspices without civil sanction."

Does that make sense to you  Huh  and if they did would the be legally married  Undecided    I read it as not .

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this information is Crown Copyright. from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk   London Hall, Thurston Stanley, Phillips, Ayrton, White, Morrish, Smith.    West Ham/Barking Saint,Briggs,   Essex  Barker,   Hampshire  Kill, Kent Spong,   U.S.A Earp, Scotland/Cumbria Templeton, Devon Morrish, Chudley
patrish
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #214 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:02 GMT (UK) »

Both born in Whitechapel




Cathayb  this is  an extract from the researcher at the Beth din.

"I am sorry to report that although I searched the registers of all the Ashkenazic Orthodox synagogues serving London in th 1850's whose secretaries had the authority to perform marriages, I did not come across the Phillips-Palmer entry you require"

While it could be that this couple had a "stille huppah" (lit.silent canopy) i.e a ceremony under private religious auspices without civil sanction."

Does that make sense to you  Huh  and if they did would the be legally married  Undecided    I read it as not .


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this information is Crown Copyright. from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk   London Hall, Thurston Stanley, Phillips, Ayrton, White, Morrish, Smith.    West Ham/Barking Saint,Briggs,   Essex  Barker,   Hampshire  Kill, Kent Spong,   U.S.A Earp, Scotland/Cumbria Templeton, Devon Morrish, Chudley
patrish
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #215 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:05 GMT (UK) »

Sorry  but I cant seem  delete the above duplicate post  Huh
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this information is Crown Copyright. from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk   London Hall, Thurston Stanley, Phillips, Ayrton, White, Morrish, Smith.    West Ham/Barking Saint,Briggs,   Essex  Barker,   Hampshire  Kill, Kent Spong,   U.S.A Earp, Scotland/Cumbria Templeton, Devon Morrish, Chudley
cathayb
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #216 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:08 GMT (UK) »

yes they would be legally married under jewish law but not english
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deb usa
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #217 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:18 GMT (UK) »

Hi

So Emmanuel (and Susan) would be 'legally' married according to Jewish law but Susannah would be deemed 'living in sin' by her family...

Would the children have been brought up in the Jewish religion if their mother was not a Jew?

deb Undecided
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
patrish
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #218 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:21 GMT (UK) »

Ah  Cheesy .................  so that may be the answer  as to why there is no record  Undecided

No Debs I dont think so  Undecided

Jacob/John did not marry into the Jewish faith either, niether did his son Emmanuel Frederick my grandfather.

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this information is Crown Copyright. from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk   London Hall, Thurston Stanley, Phillips, Ayrton, White, Morrish, Smith.    West Ham/Barking Saint,Briggs,   Essex  Barker,   Hampshire  Kill, Kent Spong,   U.S.A Earp, Scotland/Cumbria Templeton, Devon Morrish, Chudley
geniecolgan
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #219 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:27 GMT (UK) »

Hi Girls  Smiley

I think that is your answer Pat. That's when your branch split off from the family faith.

A love match, how romantic  Grin

Good detective work there  Grin
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cathayb
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #220 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:30 GMT (UK) »

no to have any sort of ceremony they must have both been jews at the time or converted jews.it was not registered with the english registrar though for reasons i dont understsand.i doubt whether any english people would understand whether they were married or not!!!i dont think you can have a pretend marriage in any denomination.
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cathayb
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #221 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:36 GMT (UK) »

i dont think this family were very devout jews anyway.they proably did nt know any othert way when they came here,but its obvious they lost jewish ways of religion if not naming patterns fairly quickly.to be truly jewish is all sorts of probs back then,kosher cooking equipment,kosher washing equipment not unlike romany customs but kosher meat would have been difficult if they travelled at all,they would have to worship and no work from sundown friday til sundown sat and then with our no work sundays it would be a long time with out selling if your poor already.oh all sorts of probs.i expect they tried to bring their kids up jewish in the ways that mattered to them but i dont think they were particularly holy jews!!!love cathayb
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toni*
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #222 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:49 GMT (UK) »

Fagin was jewish too!
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patrish
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #223 on: Friday 14 March 08 16:51 GMT (UK) »

 Grin I dont think my Phillips family were particulary "holy" about anything  Grin

Hi Genie,

You bear a remarkable resemblance to my aunt in Seattle  Cheesy

Pity the love match did not continue, Jacob/John I heard from a descendant was a harsh  man and  my grandmother kicked Emm Fred out , I never met him  Sad

I found his death reg 1967 . Roll Eyes

I have never boiled the kettle so much as I have done these past few days  Grin Grin Grin

Know I know why it is that I love a bargain so much  Grin
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this information is Crown Copyright. from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk   London Hall, Thurston Stanley, Phillips, Ayrton, White, Morrish, Smith.    West Ham/Barking Saint,Briggs,   Essex  Barker,   Hampshire  Kill, Kent Spong,   U.S.A Earp, Scotland/Cumbria Templeton, Devon Morrish, Chudley
cathayb
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Re: Patrish Scavenger Hunt.....Everybody Welcome to Join In.
« Reply #224 on: Friday 14 March 08 17:34 GMT (UK) »

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU WOULD GET ROUND TO THAT.I HAVE A BIG NOSE,HAVE YOU?its bacause of the free air my girl free air. we jews love a bargain and we are supposed to be hard bargainers to boot.you rarely meet a poor jew except me.always an exception to the rule and it had to be me!!!! Cry Cry Cry Embarrassed Undecided Sad Angry
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