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Topic: Underage marriage and permission (Read 777 times)
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 155
My grand daughter's 1st birthday
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Hi All
This is a follow on to my other thread on Edward Cullen (Intruiging Puzzle etc). I have a copy of a marriage certificate that was issued to other researchers in 1988. Edward Cullen was 20 years old, based on his death certificate which stated he was married at 20, and his supposed d of b, and his wife Jane was probably about 16.
The certificate that I have does not show who gave permission for the marriage. I am trying to find his parentage and this may be important.
The details are: Edward Cullen m Jane Harrision, St. Mathews Roman Catholic Church, 8 August 1853. Witnesses James Harrison and Bridget Bullock.
Does anyone have access to church records that might show the names of those who gave permission.
With thanks
ACookey
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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bearkat
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3291
Census Info. is Crown Copyright, from www.national
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The marriage ceretificate should give name and occupation of the father of the bride and groom.
As this couple were minors a marriage license would have been required. These usually said "with the consent of" a named parent or guardian.
You could try looking for a license at the county record office .
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Middx - Vaus, Roberts, Eversfield, Inman, Star, Holbeck, Wyatt, Bickford, Smith, Redwood
South Stoneham, Hants - Small, Hammerton, Grist, Fryer, Trodd
Beaulieu/Boldre, Hants - Woodford, Croutear, Beck, Bendell, Keeping, Harding
Kent - Bayly, Borer, Mitchell, Plane, Vernon, Farrance, Chapman, Medhurst, Lomax, Wyatt
Devon - Tope, Bickford, Foster
YKS - Quirk, McGuire, Benn
Nott/Derbs - Slack
Hert - Barnes
L'pool- Plumbe
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 155
My grand daughter's 1st birthday
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Hi
I missed out on saying that they were married in Windsor, NSW. The certificate I have does not give any of that information as mentioned by Bearkat. Which is why I would like to be able to see the original church record as I think it was just before civil registration in NSW.
Annette
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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bearkat
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 3291
Census Info. is Crown Copyright, from www.national
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Sorry about that. I did have a quick look at your other post, saw Windsor and presumed it was in England. 
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Middx - Vaus, Roberts, Eversfield, Inman, Star, Holbeck, Wyatt, Bickford, Smith, Redwood
South Stoneham, Hants - Small, Hammerton, Grist, Fryer, Trodd
Beaulieu/Boldre, Hants - Woodford, Croutear, Beck, Bendell, Keeping, Harding
Kent - Bayly, Borer, Mitchell, Plane, Vernon, Farrance, Chapman, Medhurst, Lomax, Wyatt
Devon - Tope, Bickford, Foster
YKS - Quirk, McGuire, Benn
Nott/Derbs - Slack
Hert - Barnes
L'pool- Plumbe
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gennig
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1356
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Hi acookey
The following is a link to the Hawkesbury on the net. They are transcribing registers and placing them online. Unfortunately, they don't have St Matthew's marriages online.
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/church/
Regards
Genni
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******************************************* All census look up transcriptions are Crown copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk******************************************* Surnames: Armstrong, Gray, Greco, Lambden, Le Busque, Beaton, Carron, Pitt, Gould Areas: Victoria, Tasmania, Hampshire, Berkshire, Yorkshire, Fermanagh, Glamorgan |
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 155
My grand daughter's 1st birthday
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Hi All
Thanks for that link Genni. They may not have St. Mathews RC marriages but I found two deaths that could be significant for me. One was for James Cullen aged 40 buried in 1849 (St Matthews RC Windsor) and Thomas McKenna 1842 (St, Joseph's RC MacDonald River).
I cannot see either of these on NSW BMD, (see my other thread), so I wonder just how many church registers never made it to BMD.
Annette
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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MarieC
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3087
In Queensland, Oz
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You might be in luck, then, Annette!
State Libraries will normally do a limited amount of free research for people living in their own States and outside the metropolitan area. However, I am in Queensland like you, and some time ago I contacted the Mitchell Library - who very kindly sent me copies of some papers they held relating to some of my ancestors!!!
So go ahead and contact them, explaining the circumstances of your request. I feel fairly confident that they will look up the registers for you!
Let us know what happens!
MarieC
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Martins in London and Wales, Lockwoods in Yorkshire, Hartleys in London, Lichfield and Brighton, Hubands and Smiths in Ireland, Bentleys in London and Yorkshire, Denhams in Somerset, Scoles in London, Meyers in London, Cooks in Northumberland
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tropicalj
RootsChat Marquessate
 Online
Posts: 5865
Jenn and the family 1960
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O'Brien's Family History - 06-03-2008
by Bruce Eric O'Brien
http://www.gencircles.com/users/f6a1m13i9l12y25/15/data/1040
Hello there have a look at this link it does have some details for Edward and Jane (found it with a little help from friends)
regards Jenn
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Research names or areas: I live in Thuringowa/Townsville Queensland, Australia and I am researching TOWNSEND,PINNEGAR, STRANGE, PULLEN, GRIFFIN from Wiltshire, ADAMSON from NSW, BAYLEY from Dorset,Yorkshire, HAIR from Durham, CUMMINS, BROWNLESS from Yorkshire, SHOEBRIDGE, VINALL, BRINDLE from Kent, EDSALL from Cornwall, BRYAN from Staffordshire, MORGAN, HENNESSY, BAKER from Ireland, VAN REYK, DE LA HARPE, from Sri Lanka Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalar |
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trish251
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Posts: 8618
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Hello Jenn
The birth in 1838 looks rather suspect when he married in 1853 (aged 15?)
Hi Annette
My understanding of all NSW records at the registry pre 1856 (start of civil registration) is that they are copies of church registers. I would think that the certificate from 1988 contains all the information that was available. You could email one of the transcription agents to confirm that the records are copies of the church registers. They charge $9/10 for a transcript of a pre civil record.
From my own research it is rare to find "permission" given for marriage at this time. My ggg grandmother was 16 when she married. The transcription starts as follows
Register: Presbyterian Church Marriages for St Andrew’s Scot’s Church, Sydney in the County of Cumberland for the year 1837
I have the name & usual residence of the groom and bride. The name of 2 witnesses & declarations by the couple that they belonged to the Presbyterian Church. No mention of parents, age or permission. The bride was born in 1821 Paisley, Scotland. The family came to Australia in 1833. Her parents supported the marriage & would no doubt have given permission - but this is not in the register.
As noted by MarieC the only option seems to be to get copies of the Church registers. If you think some are missing from the registry, then you have noted before the options - SAG or the Mitchell library. I emailed my friend about looking for the 1833 birth at SAG - she is on holiday at present, when I hear back I will let you know.
Trish
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acookey
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 155
My grand daughter's 1st birthday
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Thank you Jenn and Trish.
Jenn, I believe that this is the wrong parentage for Edward. They have certainly attached all the children of Edward and Jane. I know I looked at Thomas Cullen and Mary Ann Alcorn, but after a while definitely rejected them as being my Edwards parents.I have to look amongst my papers and find out why I did that.
Cetainly the birth/marriage dates are not very believable. Edward would also have known who his mother was if it was Mary Ann Alcorn. There were some other things that didn't fit, will let you know when I search them out.
I had a big day out yesterday, and am exhausted today.
Thanks all the same for your interest and efforts. I have had some things discovered that I would not have known about had it not been for the great people on RootsChat.
Annette
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Logged
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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acookey
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 155
My grand daughter's 1st birthday
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Hi All
Waiting for answers to my request to NSW State Library, and also Hawkesbury Library.
However, I am looking at a book self published in 1995, re another branch of the family. The author undertook meticulous research, that I can see, and on the subject of BMD certificates, and Church registers, this appears in his list of sources:
"Cobar, Wesleyan Church, [/i]Marriage register -[i] marriage of Samuel William Smith and Sarah Costello (Buckley). Additional information on the register not shown on the certificate shows the groom's birthplace, parentage, and father's occupationh, plus the bride's birthplace, parentage and father's name and occupation".
So it seems that certainly in some cases, not all the information appears on BMD certificates.
Annette
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Logged
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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acookey
RootsChat Member
Offline
Posts: 155
My grand daughter's 1st birthday
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Hi all
Jen, Just checked back to find out why I rejected the Thomas Cullen/Mary Ann Alcorn link. I contacted a descendant of Thomas Cullen who told me that he had not been able to find evidence of an Edward being born to this couple. He directed me onto another family, who were descended from Edward, and they knew of the existence of the baptismal record from St. Mary's Cathedral, and that it stated his father was James Cullen, stonemason.
Hence my search.
Thanks for your interest and the time you took to check it out. It is appreciated.
Annette
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Logged
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Cooke, Aust. England
Russell, Aust. Enland
McMinn, Ireland
Gee, Ireland
Crump, London
Bowen (Bohan), Ireland
Seage, Ireland
Smith, Aust.
Dore, Ireland
Pasley, Ireland
Simmonds, England
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MarieC
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 3087
In Queensland, Oz
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Good to hear where you are up to, Annette! Looking forward to hearing the results of your further searching....
MarieC
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Martins in London and Wales, Lockwoods in Yorkshire, Hartleys in London, Lichfield and Brighton, Hubands and Smiths in Ireland, Bentleys in London and Yorkshire, Denhams in Somerset, Scoles in London, Meyers in London, Cooks in Northumberland
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Pages: [1] 2
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