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Topic: Owens Dumbarton 1850s /1860s (Read 2228 times)
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leonahoward
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 2
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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From his marriage and death certificates I know that my gt.grandfather Thomas Owens was born in Dumbarton some time in the 1850s and that his father's name was William. William was a blacksmith. Thomas ended up being a skipper in Hull. If anyone has any information that could possible tie in, please let me know. This is the big brick wall in my research.
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hume
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1737
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Hi there,
There's no sign of your Thomas' birth on the IGI, through FamilySearch. That makes me think he was born before 1855, the start of official registration in the country. The only other Owens birth (with father William) is this one:
Patrick Owens, born 15th January 1857 Old Kilpatrick - parents William Owens and Martha Hare
Interestingly the same entry also appears in the registers of Barony, Glasgow under the name "Owns". A later birth shows for the couple ... but in Ireland!
Mary Owens, born 12th May 1866 Fermanagh, Ireland - parents William Owens and Martha Haire
Hopefully someone can check the 1861 census for you and confirm/deny whether these are your ancestors! 
hume24
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merryhow
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 263
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi, I've found another Owen birth which might be your Thomas.
THOMAS EVAN OWEN b 1st May 1855 Old Monkland Lanark
Father - William Owen
Mother - Ann Henson
I couldn't find a marriage for this couple but I did see one for a William and an ANN NELSON 27th Feb 1846 Shotts Lanark, the same couple are listed as having another 5 children in Glasgow between 1856 and 1864.
If you check the IGIs perhaps the children's names will strike a cord.
Hope this Helps
Val
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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Hi All
Thomas Owens shows on the English 1881 Census as age 30 so birth year c. 1851.
No signs of a William Owen(s) in the 1851/61 with occupation of blacksmith though. There is a 16 yrs old William Owens in Dumbartonshire in 1851, one would think too young to have fathered Thomas. There is also no Thomas Owens showing in 1851/61 that connect with a Dumbartonshire birth place 
Leona, there is the possibility that Thomas's birth was illegitimate and in the early censuses he could show under his mother's surname. Illegitimate children would often take the surname of their father if known to them in later years. There are a number of Thomases in Dunbartonshire born c.1847-51 who show as grandsons/lodgers/boarders etc. which could be him under a different surname.
I assume he married in England, he shows as married in 1881. Without a mother's name from his MC, it makes the job much harder. Do you have the names of all his children and names of wife's parents to see whether there might be some clues there as to mother's name?
Regards.
Monica
PS: Welcome to RootsChat
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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leonahoward
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 2
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thank you all for your help. I lost track of my message and have only just found your replies. You must think I'm very rude. I will do some more digging around the birth records of his other children and see if I can find anything that strikes a cord. Thanks again. leona
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TAMOWEN4
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 98
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Leona,
hope you have gained some further info on the Owen/Owens from Dunbartonshire. When you say your grandad was Thomas Owen/Owens it interested me.
My grand dad Samuel Owen was born in Renton Dunbartonshire 1885, he may have had brother's and sisters but I cannot find any record. Samuel Owen had 3 children, my dad Samuel Owen and my Uncle Thomas Owen & an Aunt also I am Thomas Owen, so wondered if there was a connection.
My grand dads father was Robert Owen, born possibly Ireland his home address when he married Margaret Miller, was Airdrie New Monklands. He married Margaret in Lennoxtown.
Robert's father was Robert Owens. Seems the S was used then, however, we need to remember lack of standardised spelling.
I know this does not help your research really, but thought if you had found out more, there might be a connection
good hunting
Tommy Owen
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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Hi Tommy
This looks like your grandfather Samuel at home with family in the 1891 census:
Robert Owen 49, Warehouseman, b. Ireland
Margt: Owen 50, b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
Susan Owen 19, b. Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Andrew Owen 17. b. Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Margt: Owen 13. b. Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Janet Owen 10, b. Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Samuel Owen 5, b. Renton, Dumbartonsh
Address: 38 Nicholson St, Greenock
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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These look to be some of the children's birth entries from IGI:
1. ROBERT OWENS Birth: 15 DEC 1863 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
2. HANNAH OWENS Birth: 19 JAN 1866 Kirkintilloch, Dunbarton, Scotland
3. EDWARD OWENS Birth: 28 JUN 1868 Campsie, Stirling, Scotland
4. SUSAN OWENSBirth: 25 AUG 1870 Kirkintilloch, Dunbarton, Scotland
5. ANDREW OWEN Birth: 26 APR 1873 Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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A few more entries from the censuses to let you see their movements following their marriage on 21 NOV 1862 in Campsie:
1871:
Robert Owens 29, iron miner b. Ireland
Margaret Owens 31, b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
Robert Owens 7, b. Airdrie
Hannah Owens 5, b. Kirtinetman, Dumbartonshire
Edwards Owens 3, b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
Susan Owens 7 Months, b. Kirtinetman, Dumbartonshire
James Miller 18, boarder, iron miner, b Campsie, Stirlingshire
Address: Finlays Street, Kilsyth Stirlingshire
1881 - the family is in Kilsyth, Stirilingshire - no specific address shows on the index I am looking at:
Robert Owens 38, Bitter In Prent Work (as transcribed on the index  ) b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
Margaret M Owens 39, b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
Robert Owens 17, b. Airdrie
Edward Owens 12, b. Campsie, Stirlingshire
Andrew Owens 7, b. Kilsyth Stirlingshire
James Owens 5, b. Kilsyth Stirlingshire
Margaret Owens 3, b. Kilsyth Stirlingshire
Janet Owens 9 Mos, b. Kilsyth Stirlingshire
Andrew Miller 23, visitor, stoker, b Glasgow
I can't easily see entries for Robert and Margaret in 1901, but you have the dates of their deaths from their certificates by the sounds of it.
So your grandfather had at least eight brothers and sisters going by the censuses
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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What was the name of Robert's mother? Was it Susan?
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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TAMOWEN4
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 98
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Monica,
thanks for the information, this has answered some queries for me but confused me even more 
You are clearly an expert at this, I find myself going round in circles trying to understand it. I do appreciate that marraiges, births etc were often 'irregular' (as was spelling) in these days, which does not help. On various certificates, Owen or Owens is used. My dad insisted his middle name Millar was spelt as such, but his Gran was Miller!!
My Uncle Tommy gave me some information many years ago and I looked up some stuff on Scotlands People last night (prompted by your reply). So I will list it as I understand and see if you can confirm for me please.
My grand dad Samuel Owen, Born Renton (From his birth cert) his Father Robert Owens (Bleachfield worker)
His marraige to Margaret Miller in Lennoxtown seems ok (he is listed as a Coal Miner)
Margaret Miller's mother I have as Hanna Miller c1820 Worsted Winder?? (no mention of a father)
Robert Owens father (from his marraige cert 1862) is also Robert Owens (Coal Miner) born 1813? died 1865 at Aitchison St. Airdrie (was he born in Ireland?) Mother Susan Cleghorn little info other than died 1873 Twechar Row Kirkintilloch.
Robert Owen (c1813) his father I was informed also Robert Owens (Teacher) no birth place etc and his mother Janet Gray???
Another confusing bit, on my Grandads death cert 1935, his father Robert is given as a Shoemaker.
When I checked the 1901 census, I find a Robert Owen (Shoemaker) born Ireland married to a Margaret Owen also stating born Ireland living in Campsie (cannot possibly be same people?)
Help me sort this out pleeeeease
kind regards
Tommy
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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Hi Tommy
Just finishing the census info. This looks likely entry for Samuel in 1901, with two sisters, Susan and Janet in the household:
Alfred F Brown 28, plumber, b. Glasgow
Susan Brown 29, b. Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Thomas Brown 4, b Greenock
Robert Brown 2, b. Greenock
Hendry Hanson 24, Brother-in-law, spirit salesman, b. Greenock
Janet Hanson 20, b. Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Samuel Owen 16, Brother-in-law, Grocers Messenger , b. Renton, Dumbartonshire
Address: 17, Bruce St, Greenock
Also in 1901, is the entry that you referred to for a Robert Owen in Campsie - the transcript has wife down as Mary, this sounds like an error on the index as you say it shows Margaret on the original image:
Robert Owen 58, shoemaker, b. Ireland
Mary Owen 58, b. Ireland
Address: The Auld House Cross, Campsie
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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The reason I asked earlier whether Robert's mother was called Susan, apart from it fitting in the Scottish naming pattern for their children was that I found this entry in 1851:
Robert Owens 39, coal miner, b. Ireland
Susana Owens 46, b. Ireland
Susana M Owens 16, b. Ireland
Ann Jane Owens 12, b. Ireland
Robert Owens 9, b. New Monkland
Agnes Owens 6, b. New Monkland
Jane Montgomery 52, Sister-in-law, formerly cook, b. Ireland
William Clark 10 Months, to be married (honestly, that is what the transcript says  ), b. New Monkland
Address: 5 Mack Street, New Monkland Lanark
And in 1861:
Robert Owens 49, coal miner, b. Ireland
Susan Owens 50, b. Ireland
Robert Owens 19, miner, b. Airdrie
Agness Owens 16, b. Airdrie
Thomas Mc Gautz 26, son in law, Iron Stone Miner, b Ireland
Susan Mc Gautz (Owens) 24, daughter, b. Ireland.
Thomas McGarity 2, grandson, b. Airdrie
Robert McGarity 5 Mo, grandson, b. Airdrie
Address: 27 Aitchison St, New Monkland - this address ties up with the address you have for Robert Snr.'s death.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9116
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Your Uncle Tommy seems to have done a good job You should be able to find the death certs for Robert b. Ireland and wife Susan on SP to help you verify the information. You should also be able to find the death certs. for Robert born c. 1842 and wife Margaret Mill(*)r. This will help you to verify the information you have so far.
You are more or less there on the Scottish side for the Owen line and the death certs for everyone will help in this respect. You also have your granddad from birth to the 1901 census which all ties up with what you know about him.
Margaret Millar is a bit harder to firm up on the earlier censuses. Let me know what you find on her death cert as it may include extra info on parent(s).
When searching on SP, remember to use the wildcard option. You're lucky that Owen(*/s) is not too hard to find on the census and BMDs (some names can be a nightmare). Also, when searching for wives, you can use both their maiden and married names which makes it easier to identify.
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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TAMOWEN4
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 98
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Once again, thank you Monica. I am on night shifts just now so when I feel a bit more awake, I will copy this down, sort it out and add to my tree.
kind regards
Tommy
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