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Topic: TREASE/TRAIES continued... (Read 4458 times)
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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errr would that be HANNAH Faulkner ? 
what's with your missing Hannahs ...rather bizarre , don't you think  
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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kerryb
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I'm beginning to think I'm being persecuted by a crowd of Hannah's
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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just noticed something ...Hannah is one of those words that can be spelled left to right or vice versa .... hope this helps you on your Hannah quest ... LMHO
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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kerryb
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Deb - if I could I'd throw something at you for comments like that 
Just to let everyone know I have now added a page about James Traies to my website http://www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk/html/james_traies.html in the hope that the more places we have the name mentioned the more likelihood of someone else finding it who might, just might have a bit of missing information for us.
Well I can live in hope
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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kerryb
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Hi Bernice
Just found this thread on roots http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,315201.0/topicseen.html and the only family I could think to search for who came from Tunbridge Wells were Jane Traies who married William Roffe. Found her and William's death register copies and some of the children.
It is free at the moment to use the site but not sure how long for.
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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gardenerbob
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Kerry,
I've just had a look at the Hackney marriage register entries of 1818 and 1831 and although not a handwriting expert, my humble opinion is that the James Traies signatures were done by the same person - they both have an unusual distinctive downward stroke on the final s, they both have a similar upward slope of the surname - the capital T has an extra flourish ...
What do you think?
The 1818 register entry -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb19j_as_mcert.jpg
The 1831 register entry -
http://www.trease.org.uk/traies/txb/txb19j_ml_mcert.jpg
If the consensus is that they are the same person, here are four possibilities:-
1. The 1818 bachelor status is a mistake - but both James and wife Ann could write their signatures and probably could read as well so they would surely have spotted it.
2. The bachelor status is true. He and Hannah never married so he was technically a bachelor and would not become a widower if she died.
3. The bachelor status is a deliberate falsehood.
4. James, husband of Hannah Traies is a different person.
Do you have the 1842 and 1857 marriage certificates to hand - could you check whether they bear the same signature?
I wonder if the answer to this will also explain why we can't find the baptisms?
Bob
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kerryb
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Hi bob
They certainly do look similar. Hmm, I wonder whether Ann was Hannah and they didn't marry till 1818. What a mystery
I hope its not the wrong one, otherwise we are back to the beginning
kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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kerryb
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Hi Bob
Now I'm home ( I was at work this morning) I have printed out the two marriage certs and I have to agree there are simillarities in the T and the S and the J is quite flourished as well!
Of course the one piece of evidence or 5 pieces of evidence that will help us in this is to find the baptism records of James 1816, Henry 1819, Jane 1823, Hannah 1826 and Emma 1827.
You are right with your surmise of possible scenarios plus the one I suggested that Hannah and Ann are the same person but for some reason they didn't marry until 1818.
Another piece of evidence that would help is to find a death for Hannah and/or Ann presumably before 1831.
I'll scan the two marriage certs 1842 and 1857 and add them
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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kerryb
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Hmm now I've looked at the 1842 and 1857 scans I'm not sure they are the same James.
What do you think? They look different to me
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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deb usa
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There has to be royalty somewhere!
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Hi Kerry and Bob
I tend to agree with you , Kerry.... the signatures do look very different. The downward stroke of the "S" of Traies on Bob's certs are totally different to your certs. To me it looks like signatures of an older man vs that of a younger man.
will relook
deb 
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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kerryb
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Hi Deb
So it could be the same person then, just later on in life, ie 1842 our James was 57 and 1857 he was 72 years old whereas in 1818 he was only 33.
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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deb usa
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Posts: 4847
There has to be royalty somewhere!
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I think it's the other way around.....the signatures of 1842 and 1857 look to be a younger man ,,,, if he was 72 in 1857 I would have thought the handwriting would have gone downhill ..
1842 and 1857 look like a confident, non-shaky signature ..."modern' cursive writing
1818 and 1831 looks like 'old fashioned' cursive
deb
added ... 1842 and 1857 ...the "a' going into the 'm' of James ...look the same
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penfold, orchard, james , richards (travellers/romanies)
middleton, waterfield, skinner,adams, bray (devon, tiverton,silverton areas)
palmer,slack, smith, carnarton (cornwall)
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kerryb
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Trouble with that is we know what age he was in 1842 and 1857, so maybe its just down to the fact that he's been writing for a long time and just confident signing his name whereas when he was younger he wasn' t that used to writing. 
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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oldmanriver
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi everyone
I've been away for a few days and am just catching up with messages.
Firstly, Kerry - thanks for the message about the site for burials in Tonbridge Wells. As you say it could be useful as it expands and covers other areas. I found the ones for Jane ROFFE (nee TRAIES) and family quite quickly.
Secondly, Bob - I'm glad you managed to look at the Hackney marriages. As you may remember, I was a bit unconvinced when Kerry told us her contact had said that the signatures of James Traies on both Hackney marriages seemed to have been written in the same hand. I wasn't sure if the contact had seen the original entries of just Pallotts Indexes.
What you have sent us are obviously taken from the originals. Yes, I agree and feel convinced that the two signatures for James TRAIES on the Hackney registers are made by the same person. My thoughts in the past have always been that although 'our' James sees to have married a Hannah (and had children by her), and had definately later married Jane BERRY and Mary JONES, the suggested marriages to Ann SUTTON and Martha LOOKER always seemed a bit dubious to me. The one to Ann, because we know he would not have been a bachelor at that time, (although as Kerry said there was no proof of a 2nd James TRAIES in London at that time). However, if it had been a different James who married Ann SUTTON, it would mean that either of the two James, could have been the widower marrying Martha LOOKER in 1831. After looking at the entries you sent, it certainly looks as if whoever, married Ann in Hackney was the same person who married Martha in Hackney in 1831.
I've got two things I'd like to ask Kerry:-
Soon after we got in touch, You kindly sent me a copy of the marriage of James TRAIES and Jane BERRY and in return I sent you a copy of the marriage certificate I had of James TRAIES and Mary JONES. This means we now both have copies of these two marriages. You posted the signatures on the certificates on this site in response to Bob's request but not the certificates. Have another look at the actual two certificates (Jane BERRY and Mary JONES). I think that in fact whoever filled in all the details on the marriage certificates also filled in the names of the bride and groom and the witnesses. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this and perhaps you could post the entire certificate on the site so that Bob and Debbie could give their views.
If it is as I think and the curate did all of the writing on the certificates including the signatures, obviously the signature of James TRAIES in the later certificates will look different to that in the earlier marriages in Hackney, even if in fact it turns out that it was the same person.
Best wishes to all
Bernice
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kerryb
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Well funny you should say that Bernice
This has been on mind since yesterday because the more I look at those two certficates the more I see there is no difference between the signatures and the rest of the certificate writing. Although the mary Jones one has her mark, I am not sure how these things worked. Were these certificate copied out by someone so if Mary had left her mark that was physically shown by putting X her mark??
Anyway here is the first one - James and Jane
Kerry
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« Last Edit: Friday 18 July 08 23:10 BST (UK) by krisesjoint »
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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jamestraiessignature1842_edited-1.jpg