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Topic: "MISSING" Cornelius George Lawrence.....UPDATED and none the wiser (Read 1896 times)
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1106
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Morning Lynn, just to let you know i have ordered Clara Matilda Herbert's Birth cert this morning, dispatch date is 12th Jan.......we wait and see who this one belongs to !!!! Just hope it does'nt open up another problem for me to solve, seem to be having plenty of them lately....with both sides of my tree. 
Cornelius George Lawrence & Sarah Ann Compton Marraige cert dispatch date was 11th Jan.
CAZ
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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Tiffy
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 20
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Caz,
Been thinking. As you say, cannot find marriages for any of Charlotte seniors daughters and its Ann and Matilda that seem to have disappeared. Leaving Charlotte jnr and Elizabeth remaining together, at least to 1901, with Clara having lived with them since 1871. Although at this stage, everything is supposition, but all 'input' helps doesn't it. How about, unless Clara was the daughter of the missing Matilda (who I doubt) or of Ann (which again I doubt) the, she could be Elizabeth's (due to Charlotte junior, the head of house informing this to the enumerators through each census) she would be Charlotte's niece. Either Charlotte and Elizabeth were very benevolent or, the real mother was incapable of bringing up a child (imbecile or backward or something) every little helps. Money was short in those days, and I would have thought that even if Ann or Matilda had married, the child would have been bought up in a household, at least, as stepson/daughter, if you see what I mean.
Anyway, am now so intrigued myself, can't wait to hear results of your certificates, please don't forget to let me know.
Regards
Tiffy
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Cawley(sidmouth)Capon(mile end) Forty(gloucester/london)Lewis(wherwell/leatherhead)Walstow(nottingham/plumstead/woolwich
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1106
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Morning Tiffy, i sure will let you know. Cant wait for the certs to turn up and see what they throw at me........
With both sides of my family i have mothers giving birth to kids with fathers unknown, me and a contact last year found that a rellie had 2 boys and sent them to Barnados Children Home, 1 of the boys was sent to Australia and is still alive today, we have made contact with a Grand daughter of his, and then another one of her sisters had another 2 kids and packed them off, so i wont be shocked by anything !!!!!
At least not now anyway....LoL 
CAZ
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1106
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Morning Lynne, hopefully Cornelius George Lawrence marraige cert will turn up tomorrow or friday, then when that turns up i know Clara's birth cert will (should) be the next day....as for bets...im staying out of this one... LoL, i reckon she could be ANYONES daughter, nothing amazes me with my tree anymore, i've hardly got any straight forward families....my poor old Gt Gt Grandad Cornelius George Lawrence being put down as SON to his Grandmother on 1 census...GRANDSON to his mother on another census.....and his mother disappears off the face of the earth after (i think) 1861 and a couple of Aunties cant be found.
Cornelius even marries his neighbours wife after his 1st wife sarah dies.
I just hope that Clara's birth cert has a mothers name that i know on it...ie: Anne or Matilda.....or Elizabeth or Charlottes.
We wait and see !!!!!!!
CAZ
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1106
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Hi Lynne, i would'nt have thought that Clara's death cert would shed any further light on her, see what her birth cert throws at us...LoL...i've not ordered her death cert for now.
CAZ
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1106
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Morning Lynne..............well what can i say , i've got Cornelius George Lawrence marraige cert and Clara Matilda Herbert birth cert this morning.
Clara Matilda Herbert was born 25-1-1864, the address looks like 13 White Hart? Street, Cheltenham...Father : William Herbert...Mother : ANN Herbert, formerly Derrett.
NOW for the twist in Cornelius George Lawrence marraige cert...on his birth cert there was no father listed.
Cornelius George Lawrence & Sarah Ann Compton married 19-7-1869, Cheltenham. His father is listed as being William Lawrence a Labourer, witnesses were Alfred James Arundell (dont know the name) & Charlotte Derrett (his Auntie OR Grandmother)
SO, why was'nt his father down on his Birth Cert but on his Marraige Cert......his grandmother "Charlotte" was a "Lawrence" before she married George Derrett and she had Cornelius's mum Matilda Lawrence before she married George........................
You dont think there was some "interbreeding" going on here and thats why on the 1851 census Cornelius is down as Brother to his Mother, and on the 1861 (i think) census he's down as Grandson to his mother !!!
Im more confused now than i was before, i think i would have preferred it if his father was'nt put down on his marraige cert.
What's your thoughts on this now then !!!!
CAZ 
ps, hope the above made sense, i know what i was trying to say but putting it down and making sense was somethng else
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1106
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Hi, i still cant find the marraige between Ann derrett and William Herbert, and yet i can find them from 1871 census to 1901 with other children.
CAZ
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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Valda
RootsChat Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 7142
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Cornelius would certainly on his marriage, not wish to show he was illegitimate if he could help it, so he would need a father with the same surname as himself. Then it would be up to him what name he might give his 'father' as a first name, or that might in fact be his father's first name.
Have you looked for Ann Derrett's marriage on 1837online. FreeBMD has poorish coverage for marriages in the early 1860s.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/progressM.shtml
Regards
Valda
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1106
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Hi Valda, no i've not looked on 1837 for their marraige, im afraid i dont have any credits for that site. I'll just keep checking freebmd everytime its updated.
As for Cornelius George Lawrence's father being on his marraige cert and not his birth cert....are you saying that he could have made a father up for his marraige cert....i did'nt think that was possible or allowed....or am i having a thick moment and reading that bit wrong...LoL
CAZ
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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Valda
RootsChat Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 7142
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Marriage certificates are the most fabricated or at least embellished documents we rely on for our information. People in the past have adjusted their ages for various reasons. They often don't chose to use all their first names or in a different order, maybe not even the surname they had at birth. They might elevate their occupation slightly and if they don't do that then if their father is no longer around his might get the elevation. Their address in towns, might very well be one of convenience for the marriage - for instance the same address even though one of them lives in a different place - saves on the cost of banns being called twice. If they are illegitimate father's names may be made up. You have a choice if you are illegitimate telling everyone (they might not know) or hiding it and giving a father's name on marriage for propriety's sake - which would you chose?
Amongst my records I have an illegitimate man who married four times - each time he gave different names and occupations for his father, as he got older, moved up in the world and moved away from his home. Who was to know? At the last wedding I attended the groom put his stepfather as his father on the certificate. This was the man who had brought him up and whose surname he shared. It wasn't his genetic father.
Liam Gallagher on his marriage refused to even have his father's name put on his certificate.
There was/is no question asked on the certificate about whether father's were deceased. If they were not asked the non-existant question then there is no reason for it to be put on the certificate. They might have said 'oh but by father's dead' in which case the 'scribe' may or may not have entered the information. Even if deceased is written on the certificate it might not mean the father is dead. Again I have instances of that on certificates. The father ran away with another woman, so as far as his children were concerned it was more face saving to say he was deceased.
Of course whoever is writing the information on the certificate could get it wrong. If a couple married in church a duplicate copy was made of the certificate for the local registrar. Once the certificate arrived at the local registrar a copy was made and this was sent to the GRO where a clerk copied some of the details into the index (no check was made that the clerk copied the details into the index correctly and when the handwritten indexes got too old the GRO brought in temps to type the handwritten indexes - nobody proof read their typing and the old indexes were thrown out). A lot of copying involved here before you get to see your 'original' GRO marriage certificate or find the reference in the index - an index which obviously has mistakes in it.
Birth certificates can also be embellished. I have several where I know the child was illegitimate but the mother bluffed it out, borrowed a ring and arrived at the registrar as Mrs...... The last certificate I know like that was in the 1930s. I know the gentleman whose birth certificate it is. His parents were living together at the time but never married.
You should really take all historical documents with a pinch of salt until you can prove them with other records. They are only as good as the information supplied and as good as the person writing it down and/or copying the written information (this very much includes censuses to).
Regards
Valda
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caroline hammill
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1106
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Morning Valda,
Thank you so much for explaining this to me, i never thought that they could just put down a name to suit them.
So i shall have to take Cornelius George lawrence father on his marraige cert to be most likely made up....unless his mother told him at some point that this was his father.
I think another way to see what he says about his father is that George had a second marraige after his first wife died, i think next month ...if i can find the details...i'll order that marraige cert and see what he puts for his father then.
Thank you
CAZ
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DEVON : Gillard,Horn,Powlesland,Cooper,Crocker,Mallett,Branch
GLOUCESTERSHIRE : Hanks,Pratt,Bowen,Hall,Compton,Lawrence,Morris,Williams, Izard,Dancey,Derrett
WORCESTERSHIRE : James, Wheatcroft
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Tiffy
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 20
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello Caz, well much of what Valda says is what I have been thinking. I too found William and Ann Herbert in Queen Street Cheltenham 1871 and again, I think in 1881 with further children. However, if Clara was first born, followed by two boys 1866 and 1868, then why was Clara shunted off to live with their Aunts?? At one stage I thought that Clara might just have been visiting on the day of the 1871 census, but this is not the case because she seems to be living with them up to 1901 and probably by 1903 where I think I found her death.
It seems so strange to give the first born child (of a legal marriage) away to family to bring up, doesn't it?
There is also the senario that Ann just took William's surname without ever marrying, that used to happen then and all children were legally registered by both parents under Herbert surname.
With Cornelius, as I mentioned a few messages back, Charlotte (or someone) may have come clean in order for his marriage details, or fictitious to save face at time of marriage. Was the Charlotte witness to marriage Senior or Junior. If by Charlotte junior suspect this might be a true father name, if Mother was dead at time of marriage and no further embarrassment to her.
As there seems to be no sons produced by Charlotte Senior and you suspect incest, then perhaps an Uncle or Cousin were involved!!!
One could keep going.
Tiffy
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Cawley(sidmouth)Capon(mile end) Forty(gloucester/london)Lewis(wherwell/leatherhead)Walstow(nottingham/plumstead/woolwich
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Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
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