|
Pages: [1]
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: Germany: George Green, pork butcher (Read 289 times)
|
Bethgem
RootsChat Extra
 Offline
Posts: 44
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
I know my German grandfather came to England from Germany with his fiance, also German, and they married in Bradford in 1889. He was aged 31 and she was aged 23. I now want to find out why they came here, if that is at all possible.
He was issued with an Identity Book, No. 14087, in 1918. He was living in Congleton, Chester, where he had a pork butcher's shop, with his wife, my grandmother Fredericka, nee Weber.
The Identity Book shows "Date of arrival in District where this book was issued: 29 May 1889". Also, "Last previous place of residence: Bradford". That is where they married, on 19 May, and just ten days later they were in Congleton, Chester, where they settled and brought up a large family.
An only son, Charles George Green, became a serving member of our armed forces, which one is not known, and he fought for England in WW1. He died 20 Oct 1918, aged 29.
The date of immigration is not known. I have not been able to find out if there was a reason for them wanting to move here, either political, or uprising, or anything. Is there any way that I can search?
I know that in Germany they did not keep records like censuses as we do here. It has been difficult even making a start. Any help to point me in the right direction please?
Bethgem
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Salford, Stretford, Reddish. Thomas Phillips. Looking to find the addresses of his gent's hairdresser's shops, one in each area.
|
|
|
|
|
JustinL
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 458
|
Hello Bethgem,
Charles George Green (aka Johann Michael Gruen) became a naturalized British subject in 1931 (see attached exert from the the London Gazette of 5 May 1931).
His naturalization papers are held at the National Archives in Kew (HO 144/13086). Follow this link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0335/
This file appears to be closed until 2031. You should nonetheless make enquiries about access - it's hardly going to endanger national security!
There is another file (HO 45/12970) relating to the claim of German nationality of Charles Green from the period 1918 to 1928. I think this refers to your ancestor - remember he was recorded as Charles George Green in the 1891 census. Follow this link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0333/
There's plenty to keep you going here.
Good luck,
Justin
|
|
|
|
|
lesleyhannah
RootsChat Veteran
Offline
Posts: 719
|
Hi Bethgem
I agree with Justin. I've applied for 'closed' files from the National Archives in the past - you sometimes have to wait a while before permission is granted, but I've never had access refused. Occasionally, the naturalisation papers have very little information on them, but many of them are real treasures, giving information that you'll never get anywhere else.
For example many of the papers I've seen have asked the question, Why do you want to come to this country - the answers may not always be true but they're always interesting. They usually give the names of the parents, and where they were born. They also often name other relatives already in England. Also they have referees who say how they know the immigrant - and these are often relatives by marriage etc.
If you can get to Kew yourself (or find someone to go for you), you can photograph the files while you are there - the cheapest option. Otherwise you can have them posted to you which can be expensive if it's a big file, but well worth it if it's a vital piece of your family puzzle.
Good luck
Lesley
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bethgem
RootsChat Extra
Offline
Posts: 44
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi, I just wanted to tell you that I have applied for a review to access the record of my grandfather's nationalisation, and they say it will take 20 days. I will be wanting it by post and never mind the cost.
I have tried to find a record of when they, Charles George Green and Fredericka Weber, his fiance, came to England. Not having anything other than their names and dates of birth and when and where they married, in England, I suppose it is not possible to find their immigration record. Any tips?
Still, when I am allowed access to grandfather's nationalisation record it just might give me some more clues and information that will help to find when they came here. As to why they came here, well if that question is not shown and answered on the papers then I will never really know. Waiting the 20 days starts from here 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Salford, Stretford, Reddish. Thomas Phillips. Looking to find the addresses of his gent's hairdresser's shops, one in each area.
|
|
|
JustinL
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 458
|
To find an exact date you would need to find the right ship's maifest. To even start that search, you'd need to know their port of departure and port of arrival.
My ggf and two elder brothers came to London from Hamburg in the 1870s. They all missed the 1871 census, but the naturalziation papers of the middle brother confirmed his arrival in 1872.
Prussian bureaucracy dictated that everyone had to be officially registered in the town of residence. (These laws still apply today.) The wonderfully helpful archivists in Hamburg were able to dig out my ggf's registration card from 1869. The card recorded one short trip to London, and then a final departure in 1876.
Even armed with a date of depature, I cannot find a conclusive match on a ship's manifest. The main problem is that most people were listed by the initial of their first name and then the surname. So unless the name you are seeking is very unusual, you can never be sure that you have the right person.
My ancestors were undoubtedly evading seven years of compulsory military service in the Prussian army. Your Charles George would have probably already served his time. I imagine it was pure economics that drove them out.
I look forward to hearing how you get on.
Justin
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
JustinL
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 458
|
Hello Lesley,
What are you hoping to find out?
The laws themselves are available on the internet in German.
The Prussian Military Laws and Bye-laws of 1867 stated that the seven years of military service were to begin on 1 January of the year in which a young man turned 21. Further laws were implemented in 1872 following German unification.
One of my ggf's nephews returned to Hamburg after a period abroad four weeks before his 21st birthday (1899). He left for London two weeks later; his registration card bears the note that he was to be arrested should he return to Hamburg.
Evasion of military service was more usual in areas annexed by Prussia.
Hope this helps, Justin
PS What was your gggf's name?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bethgem
RootsChat Extra
Offline
Posts: 44
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
I don't mind the hijack! I have learned something from it. Evading 7 years in the military is quite possibly the only reason for them leaving to live abroad.
My grandfather, Charles George Green, would have been aged 21 in 1879 and as you say, he probably had served his time in the military before leaving there. At least as far as we can guess, anyway. Economics could be another reason for leaving their country. What a big gamble it must have been, in those days.
I have found out from a distant relative whom I have recently been able to contact due to my searches for my family tree that my grandmother, Fredericka, came from Bolivia. And he also mentioned Prussia too, but on the phone I could not catch every word he told me. Maybe there could be some connection with what you say about the 7 year military service. And, you say the Prussians registered everyone's place of residence in their town so maybe I could find records one day there of my relatives. Thanks a lot for the information.
Bethgem
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Salford, Stretford, Reddish. Thomas Phillips. Looking to find the addresses of his gent's hairdresser's shops, one in each area.
|
|
|
|
|
JustinL
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 458
|
Bethgem,
I had understood that the NA would take 20 days to review the access restrictions.
I would recommend that you phone (or at least email) the NA and explain that Charles George Green is your grandfather and died many years ago. I have found them to be quiite reasonable and human in the past.
They should at least explain to you why they are not prepared to make the file available to you.
Justin
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
jorose
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 2908
|
When I looked at it (on the Catalogue --> HO 144/13086), I was at least able to select 'request review'.
If you ask for an estimate on it through the online shop, however, it will flash up the warning without giving you any further information, which is a bit unhelpful of them.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Bethgem
RootsChat Extra
Offline
Posts: 44
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi, I have tried again, using the review link from the link you gave me of the one that says is closed. This time they allowed it through and say they will reply in 20 days for a FOI request. So now it might work, if they are human.
I said it was my grandfather and his profession and where he lived with his German wife, and had brought up a large family - all to add to the request. I said the same before and this time it went through. It might have been because I used the estimate request page before. That could be it. I am so brand new to this - The National Archives website, that is.
Thanks again for helping me, it has been very useful.
Bethgem
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Salford, Stretford, Reddish. Thomas Phillips. Looking to find the addresses of his gent's hairdresser's shops, one in each area.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1]
|
|
|
|
|
George_Green_1931.pdf