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Topic: Harry Smith's Father ??? (Read 603 times)
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 809
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Stef. I very much appreciate your very well informed and researched local expertise. I have worked from the 1858 map of Buck to establish geographical reference points so the explanation of the parish system is excellent and very helpful. That part is always a bit confusing from the American side. Excellent analogy regarding the "bacon strip parishes" -- makes that very clear now.
Something is sticking about the Drayton Beauchamp reference --- I may have something from there which I set aside previously.
I agree that it is unlikely he was buried outside the area --- they were very rooted there for many years and were poor people -- unless he was killed or died while away from home  Or could there be a reason the death was not recorded because of lack of money or some issue with the parish??
Will also renew the search for Thomas and Sarah focusing on Oxfordshire -- maybe some remnant of their families left there. WESTBURY being the easier name to search than SMITH (if "easier" applies ??) Will be tough to do on-line before civil registration and the census.
Sarah's 2nd marriage transcript to ELizah THORNE would be very helpful in order to document that event. Thank you!!
Have you found in your other research, SMITH (or any other surname ) all knotted together like this but not related? Seems so strange that house after house and groups on adjacent streets within these tiny hamlets and they are not related or at least not from the seminal family/families ?? I would think the SMITH surname has something to do with complicating this based on how the name came to be. Over time the intermarriages between family groups and the cousins marrying cousins also becomes a factor. Not to mention every family using the same 10 names over and over!
LOL! on your comment regarding not having the courtesy to stay alive until the next census!! In American research, when they miss (or are lost in) the English census, arrive after the U.S. census and then marry, have children and very inconveniently die before the next census --- harumpf 
Thanks again -- really appreciate your sharing your considerable knowledge.
lissa
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Lissa - Here is the transcript of that second marriage.
St Michael & All Angels, Aston Clinton
Marriage 17th Oct 1853
Elijah THORN, aged fa, Widower of Aston Clinton, Labourer, son of Joseph THORN, Labourer.
Sarah SMITH, aged fa, Widow of Aston Clinton, Platter, daughter of Richard WESTBURY, Labourer
by Banns
Witnesses John PARRADINE, Mary BALDWIN
All made marks, rather than signing.
"Platter" means "Straw Plaiter" and is often spelt this way in parish registers.
Please note this is from a generally reliable family history society transcript - I can't vouch that it matches original registers.
I confirm there is definitely no burial transcribed in the registers for this church that could be Thomas SMITH. There are no SMITHs he could be muddled with, nor ant Thomas that look like they could be an error.
I've also checked St Leonard & Buckland again, and (just in case) nearby Halton.
I suppose if he was a pauper, and died in an institution in Aylesbury, he might have been buried there, to avoid the expense of bringing him home. My gut feel is you might find his burial at Drayton Beauchamp, but my understanding is that the registers for the relevant date are still in use at the church, so can't even be viewed at the county records office, let alone on film.
I don't know what to make of the Aston Clinton (and surrounding villages) SMITHs. I put off trying to research them for a while, because I thought the name would be hard. In practice it seemed quite easy to attribute up to 75% of the SMITHs in that area in the 19th Century to a common pair of ancestors, which genuinely surprised me.
I remained aware of quite a few SMITHs that were not obviously related, and yours seem to be some of them. At least one other SMITH family has a soldiering background, and, again, doesn't obviously link to mine.
You mentioned COX at one point. Were they from here, please ? I have these in my ancestry. They changed the name from COCK to COX about the time they were marrying in to my SMITHs. I guess I can see why!
Stef.
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 809
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Stef. Many thanks for the Marriage Record --- with that now have confirmation of Sarah's maiden name and father which is totally new information! YEAH!! The Parradine name for the witness is familiar. But I may be recalling this from other parish records -- maybe an employee of the parish? I also think the name relates to a wealthy farmer/land owner in the area??
I (finally) found Thomas and Sarah SMITH this morning in the 1841 Census. They are not indexed. I worked from the other nearby Smith references given to me several years ago through the census pages to find them. Everything is the same as previously reported. I guess the eldest son Charles (age 10 or 11) was "loaned out" at the time otherwise all the siblings born at that time accounted for so hoping it truly is my group.
Seems Dancers End still exists -- was able to find several references by googling -- in the modern villiage of Halton, Dancers End and St. Leonard's Road were mentioned together in a building permit request. I wasn't able to find any pictures of the area yet.
I originate from a long line of plaiters/platters apparently!!! All the women in my Steeple/Middle Claydon branch are lace makers. Have found historic photos's of women outside their cottages --- who could be my great great grandmother/aunts -- working away! I did not get the gene for any of these talents!
I'm checking back on the COCK/COX (sure glad they changed that!!) but think there is a marriage or two through a different line and not the Smiths. Will confirm that with you.
I congratulate you on your success with the SMITH line -- a remarkable achievement to have linked so many!!
I'm not so hopeful about my lot but perhaps your help the WESTBURY connection will help open the door a little wider.
No Military connections for the Smiths that I know of. There are a couple of military connections through my other Bucks line but nothing of distinctive interest.
When I order the DCs for the possible Thomas Smith's in Aylesbury, I'll let you know what they show in case they are helpful to you as well. Unfortunate luck on the Drayton Beauchamps records --- wonder what secrets hidden there to prohibit them from becoming public domain 158 years later 
Stef. you have been very encouraging and most helpful.
Thanks again!
lissa
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Lissa,
If you can get the right Thomas SMITH death cert, then at least we will know where he died, which may give clues to his burial.
I've yet to try approaching Drayton Beauchamp church directly about access to their records, but having seen the standard scale of charges the Anglican church say they apply for this, if Drayton Beauchamp stick by the rules, I don't think I'll be going for it.
My direct line are all accounted for, so further work in that Parish would only be side branches, and it's not something I can really justify spending out a lot of money on.
I too have many straw plaiters in my line, the most recent being Ann PENN, wife of William, ("Will"), SMITH. (These are my Great grand parents, both from the area we are talking about, but buried across the county boundary in Tring, Hertfordshire).
Let us know outcome on the certificates, and if I turn up anything else, I'll certainly get back to you.
Stef.
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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An update on this.
Looking at both the 1841/1851 situation, then the hamlet of Dancer's End, where Thomas and Sarah SMITH were living fell within the parish of Buckland, Buckinghamshire.
That's still the case today, (although neighbouring parishes have changed dramatically since those dates).
The border with Drayton Beauchamp parish is within just a few hundred yards, but the home parish of anyone living in Dancer's End, (or nearby Ebb's Pit or Spencer's Green) would have been Buckland.
I'm glad you made me think about it, because it's the first time I've actually got around to working out the exact Status of these hamlets.
Alan
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 809
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Progress!!! maybe......
A sharp RC'er on the Oxford board found marriage of Richard WESTBURY to Mary COLLET Jan 19, 1811 which fits (sorta) nicely to an extracted IGI record for Sarah WESTBURY c. June 30 1811 in Charleton Ottmoor Father indicated as Richard, Mother as Mary.
ADDED: Richard indicated he came from Grendon Underwood, Buckinghamshire on the MC --- a hop and skip from Bicester !!
If a correct fit, made it to the alter just in time 
Now following this theory to determine if Richard WESTBURY could be part of this group and a son of a Joseph and Mary WESTBURY. Mary possible nee LINES
1841 BICESTER, PLOUGHY HUNDRED, OXFORD (CROCKWELL)
WESTBURY, Joseph 80 (1761) Ag Lab Of the County
WESTBURY, Mary 65 (1776) “
WESTBURY, Harriett 20 (1821)
WESTBURY, Richard 29 (1821)
WESTBURY, Thomas 15 (1826)
SMITH, Richard 4 (1837) hmmmmmmmmmm
Richard WESTBURY b. 1790 or earlier, a son of Joseph & Mary
OR a 1st wife before Mary ?
Are Harriett, Richard & Thomas - children or grandchildren
Who is Richard SMITH
IGI:
Extracted Record: Birth: Joseph WESTBURY c. Sep 9, 1765 Bicester Father: Joseph
Extracted Record: Marriage: Joseph WESTBURY to Mary LINES 1802 Bicester
Extracted Record: Birth: Joseph WESTBURY c. Nov. 20, 1803 Bicester Father: Joseph Mother: Mary
From IGI, Possible Children of Joseph and Mary (LINES) WESTBURY:
• Joseph c. 1803
• Mary Ann c. 1806
• Eliza c. 1809
• Catherine c. 1811
ALL BICESTER
1851 BICESTER, MARKET END 68 SHEEPS STREET
WESTBURY, Harriett 33
WESTBURY, Richard 31
SMITH, RICHARD 13 RELATIVE b. 1838 Bicester
NOTE: William FRANKLIN lives next door
1861 BICESTER, MARKET END
FRANKLIN, William
FRANKLIN, Harriett
WESTBURY, Richard
1871 BICESTER, MARKET END
FRANKLIN, William 54 (1817) b. Chalford Il Giles, Buckinghamshire Occ: Carrier
FRANKLIN, Harriett 53 (1818) b. Bicester Occ: Ag Lab
WESTBURY, RICHARD BRO-IN-LAW 50 (1821) unm b. Bicester Occ: Ag Lab
BMD: Death Jun QTR 1875 Bicester Richard WESTBURY Age 55
Likely a wrong track here......but posting anyway 'cause you never know and maybe you or someone will have some helpful thoughts/information.
Thanks again, Stef.
lissa
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 809
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Glad I was of help to you --- HA HA!!! Not much return on your investment, I'd say........
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for the update Lissa,
Now I'm aware of someone's interest in some other Aston Clinton SMITHs I'll try hard to see if I spot anything on them, whilst working on my lot.
Let us know of any successes you can get from new leads, and (particularly) if you manage to find Thomas' death registration.
I still feel he ought to be buried at one of the churches I checked, and am intrigued why he is not.
Stef.
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