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Topic: Harry Smith's Father ??? (Read 683 times)
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 877
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Looking for help or inspiration on this one tho' pretty sure I know how hopeless this is ....
Harry Smith Age 2 on 1861 in Aston Clinton with unmarried mother Rhoda Smith.
I have received his BC w/ bd of March 26th, 1859. Rhoda did not name the father.
Rhoda marries a widower in 1868 (have their MC) and by 1870 they have emigrated and are in the U.S. Harry Smith takes on his stepfather's surname from that point forward.
Short of a DNA study, any other way to look for who the birth father might be???
Many thanks for any guidance or ideas 
lissa
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 877
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi lizdb and Jill, thanks for responding.
You have confirmed the grim reality of probably never knowing 
Jill, thanks for the suggestion to contact Bucks Arcchives. I will try that.
I did try try looking on the NA site for Bastardy cases but I'm not very versatile on that site and what I did find wasn't them. But will try with that again "just in case"...
Rhoda seemed to make her own way as a plaiter until the time she remarried.... family (also poor people) lived close by..so somehow she managed until she married. In Harry's memoirs later in life he recalls being in some sort of "private school" before they went to the U.S. So maybe there was an "arrangement" w/ the father's family.
I also have my suspicions about the wealthy older unmarried farmer next door with a young housekeeper and the other 2 young unmarried women close by also with small children.....  just making up stories......
Many thanks!!
lissa
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 877
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks lizbd, I have thought of the parish record --- need to pull out my files on the Smiths to see there are baptismal locations in Aston Clinton for others of the Smith family as a starting place.
I have Smith "cousins" descending from Rhoda's brother -- they know little except that Rhoda's life was hard setting out and got much better after marriage and emigration.
The only other straw to grasp is that no one in Rhoda's family is named Harry. So either she just liked the name or it's a clue to the father's name  And, Harry also named a son Harry........maybe as a way of subtly carrying on a blood line association.
Thanks for the further suggestion!
lissa
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The only other straw you could clutch at is to see if he was christened and if there is anything in the Parish record. More that likely it will just say 'son of Rhoda'.
Unfortunately the transcript of the baptism at St Michael & All Angels Church, Aston Clinton, simply reads.....
16 Oct 1859, Harry, Child of Rhoda Smith of Aston Clinton
In my experience it would be highly unusual for the church registers to name a father, if the civil registration of the birth did not.
Your only hope, as others have suggested, might be any surviving bastardry papers, but I don't think your chances are great.
BTW I am related to many of the Smiths from Aston Clinton, but as no Rhodas feature in my tree, I'm assuming her origins are different.
Stef.
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 877
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Stef! Like your RC nickname by the way!
Very sorry for the delayed response to your very kind effort in looking up the PR for Harry's birth -- I was out of town.
The baptismal record at least reconfirms all that is known and that Harry's bloodline will probably never be know.
Rhoda's Father was Thomas Smith b. 1811 d. 1851-1853 Mother Sarah (nee unknown) b. 1811
In 1851 Thomas, Sarah and family are on Green End Street in Aston Clinton
Sarah remarries to Elijah Thorne in 1853. In 1881 Sarah and Elijah are on Weston Road in Aston Clinton.
Rhoda's siblings: George, John, James, Peter, Job, William.
Again many thanks for your help and if we have any Smith connection from the above, let me know.
lissa
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Rhoda's Father was Thomas Smith b. 1811 d. 1851-1853 Mother Sarah (nee unknown) b. 1811
In 1851 Thomas, Sarah and family are on Green End Street in Aston Clinton
Sarah remarries to Elijah Thorne in 1853. In 1881 Sarah and Elijah are on Weston Road in Aston Clinton.
Rhoda's siblings: George, John, James, Peter, Job, William.
Hi Lissa,
This is quite intriguing, because in 1841, "your lot", including, Thomas, Sarah, Rhoda, (listed as "Rodia"), are at Dancer's End, which is but a few hundred yards from Ebbs Pit, which is where my 2 * great grandfather Charles SMITH and his wife Ann COX are living. Next door to Charles is also Charles brother, another Thomas SMITH, and his wife Mary MEAD & family. This Thomas is given as aged 31, so, by coincidence, exactly the same age as yours.
My Charles and Thomas are both sons of Henry SMITH and Frances (or Fanny) HUMPHREY who married in Buckland on 12 Oct 1802. I don't know where Henry originated from, though.
Do you know where your Thomas SMITH was born, please, or who his parents were. The 1841 shows quite clearly that he and his wife were born outside of Buckinghamshire.
So it looks likely that although your SMITH family are living in close proximity to many "local" SMITHs who are inter-related, that your family were migrants from another area, and probably not long term residents of the Aston Clinton area.
One thing you have confused me with though, is that you say Thomas is with his family in Green End Street in 1851. The family I found shows Sarah as the widowed head of household, so I think Thomas had died before the 1851 census. (This is why I don't know his birthplace more accurately than "outside Buckinghamshire")
If I have the right Sarah, then she is born in Fencott, Oxfordshire. I guess it is kind of likely that your Thomas also hails from Oxon, although perhaps not, as all children seem to be born in the Aston Clinton area.
Sorry, more questions than answers, there I think.
But to recap
What do you know of Thomas' birthplace or parents ?
&
Do you agree he is not in the 1851 census ?
Finally I have transcriots of Aston Clinton, St Leonards, and Buckland parish registers, if you need any SMITH lookups (pre 1901) done. Sadly Drayton Beauchamp, which might answer some of my mysteries, is not available. Apparently some of the 1813 onwards registers are those still in use at the church!
Best wishes,
Stef.
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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One further mystery.
Your Thomas SMITH dies somewhere around 1851.
I can't find a burial at....
Aston Clinton, St Michael & All Angels
Aston Clinton, St Leonard
Buckland, All Saints.
That would seem to me to leave only Drayton Beauchamp, (not the most obvious choice), unless he was buried away from the area.
Strange it's not at one of the 3 I have records for.
Stef.
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Lissa,
Some more info for you.
You say you do not have maiden name of Sarah who married Thomas SMITH.
It would appear to be WESTBURY, as her father is stated as Richard WESTBURY when she remarries ti Elijah THORNE.
Please let me know if there are any further details of that marriage that you do not have, and would like.
Stef.
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 877
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Stefan, WOW I'm thrilled to have new leads on the Smiths!!! Thank you and I don't mind the questions at all! I will have another look at my notes later --- I only looked very quickly last nite in order to give you the basics and it has been awhile since I explored this line in detail. I truly wasn't expecting more follow-up!
I may have filled in some details from various sources into my recapped notes as (at the time) I did not have direct, full access to the English Census images.
I think "my" Sarah is the one from Fencott and finding her maiden name is new information for me.
I'm still at work --- was grabbing a quick peek -- so will work on this later.
Many thanks for spurring renewed hope in developing this line. I do have an English Smith"cousin" who is directly descended through one of Rhoda's brothers but have not followed up with her on detailed information.
Rhoda had 2 brothers who followed her to the U.S. circa early 1870 -- I think it was John and Peter and one had wife Mary Ann and there was a son Job as well.
When I was researching this several years ago, I was very confused by the Smith's Thorne's, Cox's and Sharpe's as they were in close proximity. I couldn't really figure it all out until I found them in the U.S.
Will get back with you later re; the clarifying information you requested..
Regards,
lissa
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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OK, I look forward to any further info you have.
I'm interested in ALL the SMITHs in Drayton Beauchamp, Buckland, Buckland Common, St Leonard & Aston Clinton.
So far I think maybe 75% of those in the 1841 - 1901 period are amazingly all from the same line, but I'm interested in following the remaining 25%, to see if there is a connection I've yet to find.
I am intrigued by your mention of COX, as my 2 * great grandparents were Charles SMITH and Ann COX. The COXs have (surprisingly) proved harder to unravel than the SMITHs. To complete the picture, my other main name from those hamlets and villages is PENN.
These are very inter-bred families, I can tell you!
Stef.
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LissaM
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 877
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello Stef. Went back and rechecked my notes --- my quicky reply last nite was not far off the mark.......
Yes, I concur Sarah is a widow in 1851, alone w/ the children. By the age of the youngest, William age 4, Thomas died between 1847-1851.
I found 3 deaths in Aylesbury which could be this Thomas Smith: Sep Qtr 1847 Mar Qtr 1849 and Sep Qtr 1849
However it is discouraging you have not found a PR for his death so maybe neither of the above are him!!
I can't find them in 1841 --- BUT someone found them for me in 1841 --- several groups of Smiths in Buckland, the street name of "Dancers End" was not cited....
My group: Thomas 31 (Pauper) Sarah 31 w/ John 6 Rodia 3 James 1
As a reference, in 1841, next door are (I have not made a connection to "my" Thomas)
Job Smith 25 Mary 28 Jane 4 Frederick 2
Thomas Smith 31 Mary 31 Ann 13 William 11 Joseph 7 Henry 3
In 1861,
Sarah Thorne 50 (1811) b. Aston Clinton Wife of Elizah Thorne 55 with Job Smith 18 William Smith 13
Rhoda Smith is on her own w/ Harry Smith age 2
Marriage Sarah Smith to Elizah Thorne Dec Qtr 1853 Aylesbury
I wasn't able to access images tonight -- some glitch apparently -- could only see the index and transcribed information so I couldn't reconfirm the street addresses nor see neighbors on adjacent pages. As soon as the glitch is fixed, will try to find Thomas in 1841 to see if there is a birthplace for him --- but I'm sure you would already know this if it was there ??
I doubt if I provided anything new for you as you have well researched this area and surname. But I very much appreciate the new information on Sarah's maiden "Westbury".
I will take a shot @ Thomas' DC in my next order from GRO -- maybe will get lucky & something interesting there ?? and for Sarah's MC to Elizah Thorne as well.
Let me know if I can help further or if you have any other thoughts on all this.
lissa
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Stefan Woolf
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 87
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Lissa,
I'm in late tonight, so this may be a bit of a rushed reply.
I think one of those Thomas SMITH deaths is likely to be your man. I am confused, however, that I can't turn up a burial.
I don't know how well you know the area, but it has what were called "strip parishes", because they were very long and narrow. A parish map looks almost like a piece of streaky bacon, with Aston Clinton (which includes St Leonards), Buckland, (which includes Buckland Common) and Drayton Beauchamp parishes all stretched out side by side.
This make it very hard to know where an event may be recorded, as you maybe have to travel 5 or 7 miles to get from one end of a particular parish to another, but maybe no more than a mile in the other direction to cross all 3.
Dancers End, (where your SMITHs are in 1841) and nearby Ebbs Pitt, (where mine are), are tiny Hamlets - the latter barely exists today. I'm not even sure which parish they were in, back then.
(They are not street names, rather small groups of houses, surrounded otherwise by countryside).
Within those three parishes there are 4 churches, (Aston Clinton has it's main one, but also one at St Leonard). In my experience a baptism, marriage or burial can crop up at any, even if the people were not in that particular parish at the time. (A complication is that St Leonard was debarred from performing marriages from 1754 to about 1860 as a result of Hardwicke's marriage act).
I have the wherewithal to check registers for all but Drayton Beauchamp, and didn't find a Thomas Smith burial. That may mean it was at Drayton Beauchamp - it's hard to imagine why he might have been buried elsewhere, particularly as his wife stayed put in the area.
If you don't want to spend out on Sarah's second marriage certificate, I can let you have the full transcript from the Aston Clinton parish registers, if that helps. Just let me know.
Oh, and by the way, the 1841 census does not give place of birth - only whether born in the county, or outside it. Thomas SMITH is from outside the county, like his wife, but that's all we can know from the census. (People who can't stay alive until 1851 are most annoying!).
I have to say, I think it unlikely we will easily establish a connection between my SMITHs and yours.
If your Thomas was born out of county, and his wife was Oxfordshire born, there has to be a good chance that so was he, I'd have thought.
But you never know, in this game.....
Stef.
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