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Topic: can you decipher ???? (Read 1743 times)
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jmp
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Rabbit very kindly sent me this thread to look at, so for my half penn'th, Upper Assenden was certainly being used for the "main road" which runs north through Stonor now and past the Stonor estate in the 1841 Census. The next division as it were was just past Stonor Park where the road rises towards Christmas Common and was /is called Pishill.
I dont know if this helps, but I was confused when I couldn't find Stonor listed on the ( from memory ) 41 Census when I was looking up the house where my sister now lives. Turns out it was listed under Upper Assenden, a name which now is not locally used, and comprised a community with 2/3 farms, post office, forge and school. The parish for the area was/is Pishill with Stonor. The local C of E church being at Pishill, but the majority of the locals would have been "tied" to the Stonor estate with its own Catholic chapel which meant that many of them were christened there instead of the local C of E church. 
Jackie
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Devon: Hortop, Phillips, Palmer, (Lamerton area)
Derbyshire: Hancock, Widdowson (Sheffield area)
Suffolk:Ratcliff ,Howlett, (Lowestoft area)
Kent:Ratcliff (Ramsgate area)
Norfolk: Stout, Fiske
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4231
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I agree with PrueM's original suggestion of Lower Assendon.
To me the writing says:
Assen Lowr
It's surely probable that the testator, James BAGG, had heard Joseph's residence as Assen Lower, and/or that he pronounced/slurred it thus when making his will; and/or that neither he nor the scribe knew that it was really Assendon nor had any idea that it was formally in the parish of Bix.
Rabbit B's early link to the Bix & Assendon page has a good history which indicates that the parish of Bix included the hamlets of Bix, Lower Assendon and Middle Assendon.
Prue linked to a modern map which shows the villages.
Lower Assendon can also be found on the oldmaps site - probably easiest to find Bix and then scroll to the SE.
I don't know much about Oxfordshire (well, virtually nothing!) but I do remember reading on RC that IGI records for Oxfordshire are poor.
Perhaps the Oxfordshire Records Office and/or the Oxfordshire Family History Society might have resources which might include the name of Joseph BAGG?
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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243rose
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 269
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks everyone who contributed to this.
I am happy that it is probably, maybe, could be Assendon/ Assen Lower.
Cheers
Iain
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Gadget
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My Mum made me pretty frocks
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Thank you JAP  - I'm glad that Prue and my interpretation of a while back has been thirded.
Gadget
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JAP
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I usually shy away from making "me too" posts - seconding, thirding or whatever 
I came across this thread yesterday when I was checking out 'deciphering' threads. Such queries are always an interesting challenge - and (hoping to 'keep my hand in') I always make a decision/guess on the initial post before reading further i.e. before seeing what others think the writing says (and usually others have arrived at the correct answer long before I've looked at the thread).
This time it immediately seemed to me on initial reading to be " Assen Lowr ".
Then, having read through the thread, it seemed to me that it might perhaps be helpful to endorse the initial interpretation(s) and to add some thoughts. Which I've done.
We none of us can guarantee what it says but I have to admit that I'd be very surprised if it isn't Assen Lower - Assen easily acceptable as a slurred rendering of Assendon. Admittedly Assendon Lower is not the name of an Oxfordshire parish but the testator and the scribe of a Surrey Will would far from necessarily be familiar with the formal details of Oxfordshire parishes.
Let's hope there are some relevant Oxfordshire records re Joseph BAGG - which might serve to place him in Lower Assendon.
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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rreadings
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The Parish Records for Aston Rowant show a burial for a Joseph Baggs on September 27th, 1809. I can find no relevant entries for villages near Assendon i.e. Bix, Pishill, Swyncombe, Nettlebed.
Perhaps the place name is a poor and abbreviated attempt at Aston Rowant?
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243rose
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 269
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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thnks for that.
i had wondered about Aston Rowant. i reckon you may have cracked this.
do you have transcriptions for the parishes you mention  ?
iain
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rreadings
RootsChat Extra
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Yes!
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JAP
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The information that a Joseph BAGGS died in 1809 in Aston Rowant, Oxfordshire is obviously interesting. (Incidentally, that might well be the Joseph BAGGS, father of Robert BAGGS, mentioned earlier by DudleyWinchurch in reply #34 - from the IGI, Robert BAGGS, son of Joseph & Ann, bap 1771.)
However, it's surely unlikely that a chap who had died in 1809 would be the person named as the alternate/residual beneficiary in an 1818 Will (unless, of course, James BAGG, Yeoman in Wotton, Surrey wasn't aware that the person named in his Will as Joseph BAGG of what appears to be Assen Lowr, Oxfordshire had died 9 years earlier ...).
I wonder whether anyone has access to Oxfordshire directories ...
JAP
PS: Iain, perhaps you could tell us all you know about James BAGG, and what the Will says (I see that it's only a couple of pages).
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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rreadings
RootsChat Extra
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I agree that a chap who died in 1809 doesn't appear at first sight to be the likely beneficiary of an 1818 Will, however I still can't find a relevant BAGGS in the area even when I extend the search to Henley, Watlington and villages further afield. I'm afraid I don't have access to the records of parishes on the Buckinghamshire side of the Stonor valley, but I would have expected someone living in Assendon to have attended the closer churches of Bix, Pishill, Nettlebed or even Swyncombe. I can't find any relevant BAGGS in those parishes.
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243rose
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 269
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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hello.
the will was proved in 1818. It is not clear when it was made as there is some crossing out and correction. James Bagg died in 1818 and was born in 1730 according to his age at death in the Abinger, SURREY parish register.
His wife Ann BAGG (nee CARTER) died in 1828 and was born in 1753..............she was some 23 years his junior. They were married in Wotton, Surrey in 1782. James BAGG was not born in Wotton or Abinger.
they had 4 children.
john b.1783 d.1799
ann b.1785
Louisa b.1787
Harriet b. 1790
there is an additional text to the will scrawled in the margin which i cannot read....
i wonder whether i could e-mail the will to anyone interested so they can have a better look. the will is 576KB so i cannot post it on the forum. If you could send me a private message with yr e-mail i would be happy to send the will.
Thanks
Iain.
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JAP
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Iain, Thanks for emailing the Will to me. I'll email a full transcription (insofar as I can decipher it!) to you in a while.
However, I'll just mention that the Will was actually drawn up in January 1801. This date suggests that the Aston Rowant records of a Joseph BAGGS who was father of a Robert bap in 1771 (found by DudleyWinchurch) and a Joseph BAGGS who died in 1809 (found by rreadings) are probably one and the same person, and very probably the right chap It would be interesting to know the age of the Joseph who died in 1809. Perhaps he might have been a brother of James of the Will?
The 1801 Will was proven in 1818 - obviously James hadn't bothered to amend his original Will in the intervening years (and it wouldn't really have been necessary as residual provisions were spelled out in detail at the time the Will was written).
The date when the Will was drawn up is clearly stated as follows:
"Witness my hand this Fifth Day of January One thousand eight hundred & one
James Bagg"
But another clue to the fact that the Will was drawn up considerably earlier than the date (1818) when it was proved is that it has references to the three daughters which indicate that they were under 21.
From the baptismal dates you've given for Ann, Louisa and Harriett, they would have been well over 21 by the date of James's death (1818). They would have been aged 33, 31 and 28 respectively in 1818 but would have been under 21 - 16, 14 and 11 respectively - in 1801.
All the best,
JAP
PS: As far as I can determine, the 1830 entry in the margin doesn't help - it's just passing administration of the Will, following the death of James's wife Ann, to one of the daughters - described as Harriott KNIGHT wife of Thomas KNIGHT.
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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rreadings
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Well here's a compromise: since Aston Rowant is only 11 miles from Assendon it is not inconceivable that Joseph Baggs was living in Assendon at the time the Will was written and moved back to Aston Rowant in late middle age - possibly to be near his son Robert (b. March 24th, 1771).
rreadings
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