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Author Topic: Can I ask ?? .....  (Read 4348 times)
charlotteCH
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #15 on: Friday 11 April 08 06:45 BST (UK) »


Annie,
For one glorious moment I thought you meant there was an Indian census for dot Indians, but you meant feather Indians.

charlotte

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HARGREAVES, HANSON, BAILEY, BURTON, HEWITT, JAGGER, LOCKWOOD, UTTLEY, MIDGLEY, RUDD, TAYLOR, HOLDEN, SHAW  Halifax / Sowerby/ Southowram 18C+

GILL, Accrington, Blackburn, West Derby, Lancs, migrated USA 1891 to RI: GILL in SC: HOTCHKISS in RI: PELOQUIN in RI 

HUMPHRIES, HILLIER, ALLEN, LYDBURY  Nunney/Frome 18-19C

HUMPHRIES, BIGFORD, JOYCE, HEWITT, ROBINSON, McMULLEN, SUFFEL, CARNEY, MARRON, COMPTON, FREEMAN  Ont. Canada 1830+

82nd Regt of Foot 1808-1825
1st WRY Militia 1780-1808
LissaM
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #16 on: Friday 11 April 08 12:52 BST (UK) »

Charlotte, actually, our discussion has been about ,  North American Native Americans    if that is what you refer to as "Feather Indians"

 Smiley
lissa
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LissaM
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #17 on: Friday 11 April 08 12:57 BST (UK) »

Hi Annie,  re:  Lakota Herbs...I can see your point  in using his image particularly since this gentleman wasn't just anyone from their tribe but a tribal leader of distinction ....but he was a commercial celebrity as well.....but maybe not by his own choice Huh   

Brilliant find, however!!!

lissa
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liverpool annie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #18 on: Friday 11 April 08 14:24 BST (UK) »





The thought occurred to me .... I wonder if they had to have permission to use his image ? - and if they did .... was it family that gave it ??  Roll Eyes
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Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind !
Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I:5

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
US source - US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/faqgene.txt
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission
liverpool annie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #19 on: Friday 11 April 08 20:34 BST (UK) »




Maybe .... just maybe ..... this is him !! the tribes and bands are so complicated  Roll Eyes

U.S. Indian Census Schedules 1885-1940 about Red Shirt

Name - Red Shirt
Date of Birth - 1859
Age - 48
Gender - Male
Relation to Head of Household - Head
Spouse's Name - Nellie
Tribe - Rosebud Sioux (Sioux)
Agency - Rosebud
State - South Dakota
Last Census Number - 2516
Census Date - 30 Jun 1907

Nellie - 40 F
Samuel - 14 M
Jesse - 8 M
Walter - 5 6/12 M

Year - 1907 Roll - M595/431 Page 59 Agency - Rosebud.

http://www.aktalakota.org/index.cfm?cat=1&artid=198

http://www.mnisose.org/profiles/oglala.htm
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Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind !
Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I:5

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
US source - US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/faqgene.txt
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission
LissaM
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #20 on: Friday 11 April 08 21:36 BST (UK) »

Annie, good find !!!  bu maybe hard to find verification  BUT would be very good new is he South Dakota Lakota..... seems to be better documentation and less hits for that name in the census reports I looked at last nite.     

Is there an Occupation  ---  like Tribal Leader, Diplomat  or perhaps,  International Entertainer Huh  Would be helpful, don't you think??

The white American names are interesing ??

Will work on this later --  still at work!

Lissa
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liverpool annie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #21 on: Friday 11 April 08 21:45 BST (UK) »



Hi Lissa !

Everything thats on the image I wrote down .... no other information ( except I forgot to write "son"  Roll Eyes )

Amazingly enough ....... most of the children on the same page have white names !!

I read somewhere ..... somebody said they knew his children and they were nice looking too .... but now I can't find where I read it !!  Roll Eyes

Might have to take a trip !!   Undecided ....

PS .. it was the  Rosebud Sioux that threw me ...... but the age is about right !!  I'd like to believe its him !!  Undecided


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Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind !
Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I:5

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
US source - US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/faqgene.txt
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Gaie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #22 on: Friday 11 April 08 22:05 BST (UK) »

Hi Annie and everyone else

Don't know if this helps or not, but:

1910 US Federal Census
South Dakota, Mellette, Rosebud Indian Reservation, District 124
Roll T624_1475, p20B, ED124, Image 526
Red Shirt, Frank
Head
50
this was his first marriage of 29 years,
born South Dakota, as were his parents,
spoke Indian
occupation: partner, farm (somebody else may like to look at the image on this, but that's what it looks like to me!)
cannot read or write

With Nellie, wife, 42, first marriage of 29 years, born South Dakota, spoke Indian, cannot read or write
Samuel, son, 17, spoke Indian, can read & write English
Jesse, son, 11, can speak English, can read & write English
Mike, son, 9, no language specified

Kind regards
Gaie

Oops, modified that right now!! Wink

Added: Census taken 5th May 1910
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Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: KLARKOWSKI/OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE
Gaie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #23 on: Friday 11 April 08 22:27 BST (UK) »

Aah, there's another page to this:  all the family were Sioux, as were their parents.
Frank was taxed, received allotment in 1895, residing on own land, living in a "civilised" dwelling (extraordinary how attitudes have changed, isn't it?!!).

Gaie
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Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: KLARKOWSKI/OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE
liverpool annie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #24 on: Friday 11 April 08 22:29 BST (UK) »



Hi Gaie !

Thank you so much .... but you know ... the thing that screams out at me is ... that he couldn't read or write !!  Roll Eyes

Maybe I'm wrong - but I would have thought that a smart man like him ... who had been with Buffalo Bill all those years and who was one of the Indian delegates that went to Washington ... that he would have been able to read and write !! ( unless he was just being canny with the enumerator !! )  Undecided

What do you think ??

AND ..... Frank ??  Huh
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Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind !
Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I:5

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
US source - US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/faqgene.txt
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Gaie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #25 on: Friday 11 April 08 22:39 BST (UK) »

Hi Annie

Yes, that screamed at me too, and also that it says that he spoke only Indian.  There again, could Harry Miller, the enumerator of that page, speak Frank's native language?  Was Jesse being mischievous?   Grin

Do we know the names of Red Shirt's children from another source?

Kind regards
Gaie
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Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: KLARKOWSKI/OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE
liverpool annie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #26 on: Friday 11 April 08 22:46 BST (UK) »



I didn't read it like that ... that he ONLY spoke Indian .... just that he did !!  Undecided

I have no idea about his family .... he was on the road for a few years ... and thats why I thought he was a possible - because of the ages of the children !!  Smiley

It's been hard to find anything much at all about him .... especially personal stuff ! .... just "fluff" regarding the Buffalo Bill Show !!

Thanks again .... for that census though ... I could only find one !!

Annie  Smiley
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Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind !
Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I:5

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
US source - US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/faqgene.txt
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Gaie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #27 on: Friday 11 April 08 23:18 BST (UK) »

Hi Annie

Ok, the column heading is:

Col 17
Whether able to speak English; or if not, give language spoken.

Looking at the tribe column again, each entry on the the whole page has another word that looks like Teton typed above the word Sioux  Undecided

Just a thought:  if Red Shirt participated at a delegation to Washington in 1870, wouldn't this Frank be a bit young - it would make him about 10 at the time.

Kind regards
Gaie

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Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: KLARKOWSKI/OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE
Gaie
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #28 on: Friday 11 April 08 23:26 BST (UK) »

Well, perhaps I'm wrong about that, being too young - apparently Black Elk, another member of Buffalo Bill's touring company,  was about 12 when he was in the Battle of Little Big Horn, 1876:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/036x/

Gaie
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Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: KLARKOWSKI/OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE
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Re: Can I ask ?? .....
« Reply #29 on: Friday 11 April 08 23:29 BST (UK) »

Ooh, and this page answers my Teton query:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/036y/

You make us learn, don't you Annie!!!!

Kind regards
Gaie

Just noticed, the site is called "Frank's Realm" Grin Grin Grin
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Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: KLARKOWSKI/OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE
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