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Topic: birth and death in stirling look up please (Read 495 times)
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ceejayh
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Posts: 7
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am looking for the birth of Bethea Horsley in abt 1847 in Stirling. She appears in the 1851 census in Stirling age 4, but not 1861 when the family moved to Cumberland and no mention is made of her thereafter. I am assuming that she has died between 1847 and 1861.
I would appreciate any help in finding the birth and death in order to obtain certificates.
Many thanks,
Ceejay 
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jacques
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Posts: 741
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Sorry cannot find Bethea in 1861 or later ones either.
if she was still alive could have been in service names mistranscribed possible so looking for a needle in the proverbial.
Isabella would have been only 16 when she was born possible she wasn't her Mother due to age difference could have been a previous wife of Richard.
or Isabella had her before her and Richard got together.
Looked at possibility of bethea being short for Elizabeth. Do you have confirmed Marriage of Richard and Isabella??
Sorry not to have been any more help. If you have any other brickwalls feel free to contact me again.
Pam
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Wragg Sheffield/Rotherham Noble Sheffield/Derby Kirk Sheffield/Northumberland Lenton Sheffield Ward Deryshire Twigg Derbyshire All Census Data included in this post is Crown Copyright(see www.nationalarchives.gov.uk) |
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ceejayh
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Posts: 7
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Many thanks Pam!
Unfortunately I cannot find a marriage for Richard and Isabella either or a birth for Richard. With the age difference I wondered if it had been a runaway marriage.
I suspect Richard is in prison at Morpeth Gaol on the 1841 census and cannot work out why they ended up in Stirling before returning to Penrith.
I think Bethea may be a form of Elizabeth as well.
This is a very solid brick wall and I am desperate to find any solutions to this one.
Ceejay 
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MonicaLesl
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Hi Ceejay
The 1851 census in Stirling has Richard and family as born in Penrith. In the case of the girls Bethea and Rebecca, they show Penrith, Stirling but I wonder if the Stirling ref. has been transcribed in error and the daughters were actually born in Penrith Cumberland as the rest of the family were? Have you been able to find daughter Rebecca's birth entry? It may also be worthwhile looking at the original image on SP if you haven't already to verify their birth place as the transcriptions on the index can often go hay-wire 
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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MonicaLesl
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Posts: 5044
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This looks a possibility for daughter Rebecca's birth:
Births Sep 1850
Horsley Rebecca Penrith 25 157
Monica
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MacIsaac, MacDonald, MacPherson, MacVarish, MacMaster: Moidart - Inverness-shire. Gillies: pre-1850 Knoydart, Inverness-shire /post 1850s Fort William area - Argyll. Tully, Tulley, Moran, Murphy: Lanarkshire. Durnan, Durnin, Kelly, Tully, McPhillips: Co Monaghan. McIntyre, McMahon, Tully: Co Cavan (?) Ireland. Moran: Co Mayo (?) Ireland. ..........and lots of Spanish name interests........ Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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JAP
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Posts: 4359
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For information (and to save possible duplication by RootsChatters), there are further details about this family at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,202290
and
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,276025
As has been indicated, statutory registration did not begin in Scotland until 1855 - so IF Richard HORSLEY & Isabella (nee PATTINSON) married (regularly or "irregularly") in Scotland, and IF Bethia was born and died in Scotland, and IF Rebecca was born in Scotland, there may well be no records of any of these events to be found.
Some thoughts:
* Richard and Isabella were both born in Penrith, England according to the 1851 Scotland census, and Penrith, Cumberland according to subsequent England censuses.
* In the 1851 Scotland census, the birthplace of Bethia and Rebecca is given as Penrith, Scotland (as Monica suggested, have you checked out the actual image on ScotlandsPeople?)
* The birthplace of Rebecca (nee HORSLEY, later HODGSON) is given as Penrith, Cumberland in the 1861 England census; however, in subsequent England censuses (1881-1901; I didn't check out 1871), her birthplace is given once as Penrith, Scotland and mostly just as Scotland.
* Richard and Isabella had a son Richard born in Penrith, Cumberland in 1853 followed by other children all born in Penrith, Cumberland i.e. they were back in Cumberland by 1853 at the latest.
* I don't seem to be able to find a Penrith in Stirlingshire. In the 1851 census, the family was in Stirling, Stirlingshire (surname transcribed on Ancestry as HORSELEY).
* Do you have the birth cert quoted by Monica? If so, what are the parents' names (I notice you mention elsewhere a Rebecca, daughter of a William, who died in 1854).
Regards,
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Hannah29
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Posts: 47
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Ceejay
There isn't, and never has been, a Penrith in Stirling or Stirlingshire so my guess is that the enumerator made a mistake in entering Stirling, Penrith as the birthplace of both Bethea and Rebecca. Their births are not noted in the Scottish OPRs, but as the parents were English they may have had the little girls baptised in the Episcopal Church. Stirling Council Archives holds the records of Holy Trinity Episcopal Church from 1805 to sometime in the 1950s so perhaps the baptisms and Bethea's death will be recorded in these. If you go into http://www.stirling.gov.uk and click on Archives under Access Information you'll find a contact link on the menu.
Best wishes
Hannah
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ceejayh
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thank you all for the info.
I did get the birth certificate for Rebecca in 1850 but she is the daughter of William and Jane. I think the families are related, as there are similar names arising, but have been unable to find the missing connection. I think Richard may be a brother to William, but cannot find any evidence of this.
I have also checked Scotlands People a few times for the Horsleys but have had no joy. (I have Scottish Ancestors on another side of the family, so used some credits to look for the Horsleys!)
I think the idea of getting the original transcript of the census is a good idea and will set to work on that. I will also contact the Archives for Stirling to see if they have any church records.
I very much appreciate your responses.
Ceejay 
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