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Topic: Help needed to find birth of Emily Robins 1864 - Richmond, Surrey (Read 2092 times)
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littlefishlock
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Posts: 193
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am trying to trace a birth/ mothers name for Emily M Robins
Born about 1864 Richmond Surrey ( not found on BMD registers. )
Father Charles E Robins (unmarried) born in Kensington Surrey 1846.
Father confirmed on marriage certificate of Emily Robins to Thomas Ernest Fishlock in October 1891. She is on 1901 with Thomas and children.
It is possible she is on the 1881 census as a servant in Camberwell (eliminated all other possible Emily Robins on 1881) If so that is the earliest record /refernce I have found to her. She has not been seen with her mother, or any reference to her mother. Where can I look next?
Emily is on 1891 census with son Bertie Robins at 99 Glenthorn Rd Hammersmith. Gives her place of birth as Richmond Surrey.
Her occupation Laundry maid, age 27, head of household, Son Bertie is 6 years old. Berties place of birth was given as Camden Town.
Berties birth certificate gives address of where born as 15 King Street, Camden Town, (possibly a workhouse/ infirmary)
And at that time on certificate, Emily’s address was given as 22 Michel Row Richmond Surrey.
On the 1891 census Charles E. Robins was living at 22 Michel Row, Kew Road, Richmond Surrey.
Head of household was James E Chitty, his wife being Sarah Robins, sister of Charles E. Robins.
On the 1871 census, Charles Robins on the census living with his sister Sarah and her husband John Chitty at No 4 Paradise Place, Paradise Road also living there is Ann Robins, Charles and Sarah’s sister.
It is obvious she had a relationship with her father and his family in later years, but I cant find her as a child, nor find her mother.
Does anybody have any ideas???
Thankyou for reading
Chrissi
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Fishlock - Chiswick - Isleworth - (lightermen), Whitchurch Hampshire
Robins - Uley, Gloucester and Richmond London
Hamilton - Rogers - Kent
Robinson - Monmouthshire - Worcestershire
Chivers - Monmouthshire.
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kerryb
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Posts: 9638
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Chrissi
Hi, I am just wondering if the reason you can't find her on early censuses or a birth certificate is because she is known as her mother's surname. Her parents didn't marry did they?
Sorry that doesn't help you to find her does it!
Kerry
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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kerryb
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I've tracked down Bertie's birth certificate:
Bertie Stewart Robins
1884 September quarter
District - Pancras
Volume 1b
page 106
Kerry
Sorry just noticed you've already got that, I was wondering if Stewart was a clue to his father or her mother's name?? 
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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kerryb
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One way to find her birth might be to check the baptisms for Richmond around 1864 and see if you can trace all Emilys. If she is under her mother's name that may be one way to find her. Have you tried the Hugh Wallis site and looked at the Richmond records http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/ That could be a starting point.
Kerry 
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukSearching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website .... www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk |
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roma
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I've not edited my PROFILE yet
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Hi Chrissie
She is in the 1881 Census indexed as Emily ROLINS aged 19, a Domestic Servant, born Richmond, Surrey. with the CHURCHFIELD family at 10 Larkfield Road, Richmond
Regards
Roma
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avm228
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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See also this thread which covers a lot of the same ground:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300418.0.html
Anna
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« Last Edit: Sunday 27 April 08 11:07 BST (UK) by avm228 »
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Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)
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Valda
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Chrissi
what evidence do you have for the M as a middle name for Emily? Is it just the 1901 census entry?
If Emily's birth was registered in Richmond registration district and she did in fact have a middle name beginning with M then there are 5 Emily births registered in Richmond registration district between 1863 and 1865 with a middle name beginning with M.
The Emilys with the surnames Bartlett and Crossley are with their parents on the 1871 census and have a baptism at St Johns Richmond. (Hugh Wallis' website is beginning to show its age and doesn't cross-reference to St John's baptisms for this period that are on the IGI)
Likewise for Steer(s) and Redknap baptised at St Mary Magdalene.
Leaving the uniquely surnamed (only example in FreeBMD) of Emily Matilda Mewrisse who is not the Emily Morris step-daughter of the 1871 census whose birth is registered and has a baptism.
Births Dec 1864
Mewrisse Emily Matilda Richmond S 2a 250
This birth registration may have nothing to do with your Emily whose birth might not be registered, might not be registered in Richmond registration district, but if it is registered might be registered with the M... then Emily but not in the surname Robins in Richmond since there is only one Robins, a male, registered in that period.
Having just read the link Anna put up I've checked and there were no Emily Mauds registered in Richmond registration district between 1863 and 1865 or Maud Emilys.
Historically it is rarer for illegitmate children whose parents did not marry to keep a close relationship with their genetic father. Usually they were 'absorbed' into their mother's family. However illegitmate people on marriage if they could would legitimise themselves by giving a male name that had the same surname as their own. If their father's name was known it might be his first name and even his occupation but not his surname. Otherwise it could be the nearest male relative in their mother's family - their grandfather, their uncle, or their stepfather (with the surname changed). So Charles E. may not be Emily's father, but could instead be Emily's uncle. Have you checked and followed through all Charles' sisters and what happened to them?
Since Charles E's father was also Charles E and his parents were certainly having children in 1861
EMMA SUSAN ROBINS
Birth: 03 MAY 1861
Christening: 04 AUG 1861 Saint John, Richmond, Surrey
Father: CHARLES EDWARD ROBINS
Mother: SARAH
Mother Sarah was aged 40 on the 1861 census (and might have died in 1865) so is it possible that Emily (M) was their last child? What happened to Charles Robbins senior and Emma Susan? The names Emily and Emma can be interchangeable.
Regards
Valda
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littlefishlock
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Valda, thanks for posting. you've certainly opened up the playing field boundaries!!! Well first, we have nothing written down about the 'Maud' element. It was deduced from the fact that her daughter Florence had Maud as her middle name.
I was very interested inwhat you said about how illigitimate births were handled, and there is so much more to this than I first thought.
My aunt recalls that there was some hush hush in that area of the family, to do with a Robins and a Chitty, one being a Quaker, one being a Jew. Once I realised that a Robins had married a Chitty, I was looking at there family connections. My relli in Oz recently got hold of a copy of a letter from Henrietta Chitty, sister of John Chitty) (who married a Fewkes) (written in about 1917. The content of her letters lead us to believe she was likely to have been a Quaker. Actually, Henrietta had a daughter Emily, but dont think the dates would be right for our Emily, but I should recheck that. If Henrietta was a Quaker, then can we assume that the Robins were Quakers too?
I guess the next thing to do is check out Charles Edwards sisters, and also all the Chitty daughters.
thanks very much for you input. It is most appreciated.
Regards Chrissi
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« Last Edit: Tuesday 29 April 08 21:47 BST (UK) by littlefishlock »
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Fishlock - Chiswick - Isleworth - (lightermen), Whitchurch Hampshire
Robins - Uley, Gloucester and Richmond London
Hamilton - Rogers - Kent
Robinson - Monmouthshire - Worcestershire
Chivers - Monmouthshire.
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Valda
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What information does Emily give about her father on her marriage. Could he be Charles Edward Robins senior? If she is the Emily Rolins of the 1881 census then her birth could be nearer 1861 then 1863. She may have adjusted her age down. The names Emily and Emma are interchangeable and if the only evidence for a middle name for Emily is the 1901 census (do you have her death certificate or birth certificates for her children which record a middle name) then it is possible that Emma Susan could be a potential candidate for Emily.
Do you know what happened to Emma Susan, her brother Thomas Frederick and their father Charles Edward?
You can't assume anything. Assumption and presumption are always dangerous. You need evidence.
People convert. It doesn't require the whole family to convert. If you are a Quaker and you marry a non-Quaker you can't (at least in the past) be a Quaker. If the Robins family were baptising in Anglican churches, which they were at least until 1861, then they were not members of the Society of Friends If they married in Anglican churches then they were not 'Friends'.
Regards
Valda
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littlefishlock
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 193
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Valda, from marriage certificate.
December 4th 1891 at St. Andrews in the parish of Fulham.
Emily Robins (no M) age 28 years - spinster - Residence 24 Jason Road -fathers name - Charles Edward Robins. his occupation not legible. something Keeper?
Her husband Thomas Ernest fishlock, same age 28, same residence 24 Jason Road.
We have never been able to find a birth entry/certificate for Emily, and believe it or not, cant find her death either.
Her husband died 14 January 1939, and their address at that time was 21 Glebe Street Chiswick. I know from my grandfathers National Identity card that he went to 21 Glebe St at the end of the war for 6 months to do training of some sort, so Emily was still alive then, but cant find her death.
I think Charles Edward senior died the same year as his wife (1865), though that is only what has been told to me my Oz Rellie. Thomas Frederick (son) went on to marry a Martha, and they are seen on later census's. as for Emma Susan, I have no knowledge. I had not heard of her until your post.
I really do appreciate tghe help you are giving. I've learned so much as well.!!! Thanks you.
Regards
Chrissi
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Fishlock - Chiswick - Isleworth - (lightermen), Whitchurch Hampshire
Robins - Uley, Gloucester and Richmond London
Hamilton - Rogers - Kent
Robinson - Monmouthshire - Worcestershire
Chivers - Monmouthshire.
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littlefishlock
RootsChat Member
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Posts: 193
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi again. I've just been through all of my paperwork!!!
First, On Charles Robins birth certificate there is no Edward. He was born at 14 North Row, Earls Court, father Charles Robins, no Edward there either! Mother Sarah Robins formerely Field.
Sarah Robins Death certificate, died 30th November 1865 aged 46 years. Wife of Charles Robins (ostler) lived/ died at 9 Boltons Row, Richmond, Informant was an Amelia Ealmes (present at death) Littleworth End, Mortlake, Surrey.(cause of death Typhoid fever)
I have noted that it does not give Charles Robins as deceased, so with only one month to the end of that year, maybe he didn't die in 1865? also no mention of the E.
Their son Edward died 21 november 1865 age 16. again, son of Charles Robins (Ostler). he died at 9 Boltons Row, Richmond, and the informant was Emma Brown (present at death) 8 boltons Row, richmond.
Charles Robins was 1851 occupation Ostler, which was the same occupation given by James Chitty his brother in law in 1871.
On the 1891, is the first time the E. appears. He is still living with the Chitty's, but now both he and John Chitty are coal Porters.
I'm now going to track down amelia ealmes 
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Fishlock - Chiswick - Isleworth - (lightermen), Whitchurch Hampshire
Robins - Uley, Gloucester and Richmond London
Hamilton - Rogers - Kent
Robinson - Monmouthshire - Worcestershire
Chivers - Monmouthshire.
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katherinem
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Posts: 595
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Emily Robins (no M) age 28 years - spinster - Residence 24 Jason Road -fathers name - Charles Edward Robins. his occupation not legible. something Keeper?
Hi Chrissi,
On the 1861 census, Charles (Senior) is listed as Horse Keeper, could this be what was on Emily's marriage cert? Horse Keeper was another term for Ostler.
Have had a look through the death registrations for Emma Susan between 1861 and 1871 and there isn't one registered 
Regards,
Kath
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Bladen (Tipton, & Yorks), Teece, Cooke(Coalville), Stott (Staffs), Carr, Armitage, Henrickson, Lisle (Yorks), Pailing, Stott, Leach, Davies (Llanasa), Taylor, McDonald, Garry, Brackenbury, Brand, Rewston Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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