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Topic: Parish Registers - SCOTT - Baptism (Read 3273 times)
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9124
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The only other possibility that I am seeing at present on the Scottish censuses is this one in 1881:
Thomas Scott 16, lodger, clerk's apprentice, b. Liverpool
Liza M Gardiner 53, mangle keeper, b. Dundee
William Gardiner 29, calender worker, b. Dundee
Lindsey Gardiner 17, winder, b. Dundee
Address: 26 Dudhope St, Dundee Angus
I think this Thomas might be the same one as this one in 1871:
Elizabeth Scott 61, b. Ireland
Thomas Scott 24, power loom tenter, b. Greenock
Elizabeth Scott 20, saleswoman, b. Greenock
Thomas Scott 5, b. Liverpool
John McLaren 37, boarder, Student Of Urte (?spl) b. Glasgow
George Richardson 13, boarder, millworker, b. Manchester
Address: 58 Cresent Lane, Dundee
Thomas above is showing on the index as son to Elizabeth head. At age 61 unlikely so he is either g/son or son to Thomas or Elizabeth in the household. Would be worthwhile looking at the original to see how his relationship in the household has actually been written down.
I think this is the main family in 1851 back at Greenock:
James Scott 40, weaver, b. Ireland
Elizabeth Scott 38, b. Ireland
Mary Jane Scott 15, cotton mill girl, b. Domdel, Forfarshire
James Scott 13, rope work boy, b. Domdel, Forfarshire
Robert Scott 11, b. Domdel, Forfarshire
Stewart Scott 8, b. Greenock
Thomas E Scott 5, b. Greenock
William D Scott 3, b. Greenock
Elizabeth Scott 1, b. Greenock
William Young 36, lodger, b. Ireland
May Young 12, lodger, b. Greenock
Jane Young 10, lodger, b. Greenock
Archibald McKendrick 36, lodger, b. Ireland
Address: 52 Roxburgh Street, Greenock West
I cannot easily see the Thomas b. 1866 in Liverpool in the later censuses. There is only one Thomas showing b. England in his age range and he shows up to 1901 with mother.
Struggling to see anything else now Melonsmum.....
Regards.
Monica 
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melonsmum
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for that Monica. Looks like I'm back to square one!
He must be somewhere. I have checked all the usual sources here but to no avail.
There is another possiblity in the Govan area of Lanarkshire. There is no image available on Scotlands People for the Thomas Scott birth on that one so I would have to send off for it. This Thomas Scott was the child of Thomas Scott & Agnes Norval, who died 4 days after the birth of Thomas.
I have seen an oil painting of my GGG Grandfather 1840c. There was one of his wife as well but that was damaged years ago and was disposed off, unfortunately. Who would have had a portrait painted in those days? The Grandfather of the above Thomas was a Minister so perhaps it was feasible that he would have had one done.
The Family in the Govan area I followed to the 1881 census but couldn't find the Thomas after that. I know that I am clutching at straws here but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I am determined to trace this branch. This was my Fathers side, and where I first started but came up against so many 'brick walls' that I kept putting it on hold.
Do you have any ideas or advice on this one?
Thanks so much for your help and interest to date, I really appreciate it.
Melonsmum
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melonsmum
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Monica,
Our posts must have crossed paths in the 'ethers'.
That is very interesting, especially the Ireland connection. The thing that really throws me is the Oil painting. I'm sure that not everyone could have afforded to have one done in that era which is why I have discounted some families and latched on to others.
Unfortunately I have to go to work right now and won't be home until later tonight. (the PRONI is open to 8.45pm on a Thursday) so thats where I will be!
I will have a good look at what you sent me later.
Thanks again Monica,
Melonsmum
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9124
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Might be worthwhile searching for Scott/Minister in the censuses  What age would you estimate him to be from the painting (not that I am any good at estimating people's ages!). I understand Agnes died but have you managed to track Thomas father before or after?
Go to work now or you'll be late...catch up later!
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melonsmum
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I couldn't resist another wee look before I left. I tracked this family from 1851 to 1881 on the Scottish Census. I couldn't find them on the 1841. On the 1851, Thomas's Grandmother was listed as: Widow of (looks like Mender) Minister of Roley Church. On the 1861 she is Clergymans Widow.
I forgot to mention before that my G Grandfather, Thomas Beattie Scott worked in the Linen Industry for the Ulster Flax & Spinning Company. I have already looked at their records (which are limited). I have just had a thought. I wonder did that company have any offices in Scotland............ Another avenue to go down.
Well I really must go to work now.
I'll catch up later.
Thanks
Melonsmum
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9124
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I've just been looking at the family in 1861. From what you have said re GGG grandfather, this family specially with father Thomas's occupation would be a perfect fit
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9124
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I thought I would put down here the census entries for the family you have. Like you, I cannot find them on the 1841 census. I also can't see them in the 1881 census (did you say you had this entry or did you lose them after 1871?)
1851:
Allison Scott 65, Widow Of Mender (Minister) Of Roley Church
Robert Scott 10, grandson, orphan, b. Glasgow
Thomas Scott 26, Draper's Assistant, b. Dalkeith Midlothian
Agnes Scott 24, wife, b. Glasgow
Allison Isabella Scott 5 (months?), b. Glasgow
Sarah Morgan 20, lodger
William Morgan 23, lodger
Margaret Obrian 17, servant
Address:180 Hope St, Glasgow Barony
1861:
Thomas Scott 36, Linen Drapery Salesman, b. Edinburgh
Agnes Scott 34, b. Glasgow
Alison J Scott 10
Jane H Scott 8
Agnes G Scott 6
Isabella Scott 4
Allison Scott 75
Elizabeth Finello 18, servant
Address: 247 Eglinton St, Tradeston, Glasgow Govan
1871:
Thomas Scott 46, Warehouseman Simon & Cotton, b. Edinburgh
Jane H Scott 18
Agnes G Scott 16
Isabella Scott 14
Thomas Scott 5
Charles Scott 14, nephew, b. Calluka - I wonder where this is supposed to be?!
Alison Scott 85, mother, b. Dalkeith
Ellen Cameron 27, servant
Address: 6 Queen's Square, Park, Govan
I thought maybe by 1881 father Thomas may have remarried but can't see the family then to confirm.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9124
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Melonsmum, I'm sure you have this already but I am including it firstly to keep it all together (and stop me having to refer back to the different sources) and more importantly, maybe someone might also recognise the names from their own lines
Thomas Scott and Agnes Norval banns/marriage show in Glasgow in 1848. The children showing to them on the OPRs and official record:
1. ALLISON ISABELLA SCOTT Born 09 OCT 1850 Barony, Lanark
2. JANE HELEN SCOTT Born 03 FEB 1853/ Christening: 17 APR 1853 Gorbals, Lanark
3. AGNES GRACE SCOTT Born 29 JAN 1855 Glasgow, Lanark
4. ISABELLA SCOTT Born 27 JAN 1857 Tradeston, Glasgow, Lanark
5. THOMAS SCOTT Born 19 OCT 1865 Govan, Lanark
In respect of Thomas b. 1865 I have no idea why the image is not available on SP. One reason this could happen is down to illegibility (the register entry couldn't be imaged). It might be worthwhile asking SP the question as to why it's on order before ordering. First impression would be that the entry won't include a middle name as it doesn't show on the IGI entry, but you never know.
The 1855 birth for Agnes Grace, on the first year of official registration in Scotland will give you a wealth of additional info. For one year only, the BMD entries ran over two pages of the register and for birth certs will include date and marriage of parents, how long they had lived at their usual residence and where they were born. Also, how many children they had (alive or deceased) and sex of children.
Agnes Norval you say died some days after Thomas's birth. Have you viewed her DC? This looks a possible birth entry for her which you should be able to verify from the parent details on her death cert:
26 JAN 1827 Glasgow, Lanark to parents John Norval and Jean Baird.
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9124
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In respect of the mother of Thomas Snr., Alison Shiels. This looks to be her birth entry:
19 MAR 1786 Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland to parents Archibald Shiels and Isabella Shiells
She married JAMES SCOTT, a United Presbyterian Minister on 24 MAR 1806 Dalkeith, Midlothian. For the family of a minister, goodness knows what they did for their children's birth and christening entries - I can't find any! Thomas b. 1825c would probably have been one of their last children given the date of the marriage.
Alison was a widow by 1851 and we can't find them in 1841, so James Scott remains a mystery...for now  These are the only entries on the Wills & Testaments with references to church men:
Reverend James Scott, 28/09/1825, occupation - Minister of Benholm in the County of Kincardine. Type - Inventory at Stonehaven Sheriff Court
James Scott,09/12/1830, occupation - Rev, minister of Relief Congregation Jedburgh at Jedburgh Sheriff Court
It would be good to establish where exactly was the Roley Church, it screams of a mistranscription of the original.
If Thomas Snr. and Junior left for Ireland after the 1871 census (given we can't find either as yet in 1881), it will be hard to verify further any Scottish links. Given Thomas Snr.'s age, if he did move to Ireland there is always the issue as to whether he made it up to the 1901 census to be able to check for him.
There are no deaths for Thomas Snr. in Scotland between 1871-81.
Monica
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MonicaLesl
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 9124
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James Scott was Minister of Relief Church not Roley.....oh the joy of mis-transcriptions....
Scottish Ministers are not something I have researched but you may want to look at this site http://www.dwalker.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Map.htm
From the (very) little I know about this, the Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae is a comprehensive listing of Scottish Ministers from the Reformation to the 20th Century. I believe that there are volumes by area and these are often held at local libraries. You might want to check what is available to you over in Ireland (the Irish had their own ministers' lists).
Monica
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melonsmum
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Wow Monica, I am overwhelmed by the help you are giving me on this..... Thank you so much!
I have just had a look on Scotlands People and found a will for Alison Scott nee Shiels so I'm going to purchase it!
Here are the details of the 1881 Census:-
Thomas SCOTT, 56, b. Edinburgh, Warehouseman, (Soft Goods)
Allison I SCOTT, 30, b. Glasgow
Helen I SCOTT, 28, b. Glasgow
Agnes G SCOTT, 26, b. Glasgow
Isabel SCOTT, 24, b. Glasgow
Thomas SCOTT, 15, b. Glasgow
Galbella SHIELS, 84, Aunt, b. Dalkieth, Annuitant
Bella McMILLAN, 24, Servant, b. Lochmaddy Inverness
I wonder what happened to Alison on this Census. According to the Wills she died in 1886.
I had a look at that Minister website. I think that James may have been Ordained 20 years or so before he died. So he probably had another occupation before that. Interestingly, On the Banns for Thomas & Agnes's marriage it says that he is a Manufacturer. Maybe he took over his fathers business when he became a minister.
I'll go and have a wee look at that will.......
Melonsmum
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melonsmum
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I'm gutted...... Wrong Alison Scott!!
I should have checked the death BEFORE I purchased the will! Lesson learnt!
Here is Alisons Death information:-
Alison SCOTT, Widow of James SCOTT, United Presbyterian Minister, died 8th August 1871, aged 85. (Now I know where she was on the 1881 census!)
Address: 6 Queens Square, Regent Park, Govan Parish.
Her parents were:- Archibald Shiels Quarryman (?) Master
Isabella Shiels, nee Sheils
I'm just going to lick my wounds and plan the next move..... Any ideas?
Melonsmum
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melonsmum
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have Agnes SCOTT's death information.
Agnes Scott, married to Thomas Scott, General Warehouseman, died 24th October 1865, aged 38 at 2 Athol Terrace, Victoria Road, Govan.
Her father was John Norval, Comb Maker (deceased) and Agnes Norval, nee Baird (deceased).
If I remember rightly, I struggled to find this family on the 1891 & 1901 Scottish Census. What a pity I couldn't find the 1841 either. This could, of course (hopefully) be because they moved to Belfast or some other part of Ireland.
I was reading through some notes that I made whilst talking to an elderly relative a few years ago and they said that a couple of Thomas's sisters lived with him in later life and one acted as a housekeeper to him.
It is so hard to even look for the family in the census here as you have to know the address. Frustrating.
Melonsmum
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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This is just for completeness/interest...
The Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae lists only ministers of the established Church of Scotland; I've put established with a lower case 'e' because the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland was the recognized church but was not Established in the same way as the Established Church of England in England.
There were many breakaway sects from the established Church of Scotland. A good diagram and summary can be found at:
http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html
Ministers of these breakaway Presbyterian sects (such as the Relief Church) are not listed in the Fasti.
JAP
PS: The pre-1855 records on ScotlandsPeople are only from the OPRs i.e. Old Parish Registers of the established Church of Scotland. However, the IGI does also have some pre-1855 records from breakaway Presbyterian churches
Later PS: The Ministers of the established Church of Scotland sought to have records of the breakaway churches entered into their Parish Registers. So, if this happens, you might possibly find entries on SP. In such cases, the established Church minister often made his views clear e.g. the record might be annotated with words such as "baptized by a Seceder" (one can almost hear the disapproval!) or "married by Mr X of the Associate Session", etc
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« Last Edit: Friday 02 May 08 05:45 UTC (UK) by JAP »
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JAP
RootsChat Leaver
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 5079
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Hi melonsmum and Monica,
To clarify the position in my own mind I’ll try to set out what I understand to be the current situation.
This is because the subject of the original query – Thomas B SCOTT from Peeblesshire, son of Thomas – has now been dismissed from consideration as have Thomas Beattie SCOTT from Newcastleton, Roxburghshire and Thomas SCOTT b Liverpool.
So what are we left with?
*Melonsmum’s Ggpa was Thomas Beattie SCOTT
*Thomas Beattie married in 1892 in Ireland. His mc gives his father’s name and occupation as Thomas SCOTT, Manager
*Thomas Beattie was recorded as of ‘full age’ on his mc; as 34 (dob ca 1867) in the 1901 Irish census; as 44 (dob ca 1867) in the 1911 Irish census; and as 85 (dob ca 1866) at his death in Oct 1951
*Thomas Beattie’s occupation was given as Clerk on his mc; Clerk, Linen Business in 1901 and Commercial Clerk, Linen Business in 1911. Later Irish street directories give his occupation as Foreign Correspondent; the burial register lists him as a Compositor
*On the censuses, Thomas Beattie’s birthplace is recorded as Scotland; a 2nd cousin of melonsmum thinks he came from a border county of Scotland
*The names of Thomas Beattie’s children don’t seem to offer up any clues as far as Scottish naming patterns are concerned (see reply #13)
*Melonsmum has seen an oil portrait of her Ggggpa painted ca 1840 (see reply #13)
We are now exploring Thomas SCOTT b ca 1865 in Govan parish, Renfrewshire (sic) – he was still a scholar in 1881 which seems appropriate for a chap who was a Clerk in 1892. This Thomas has a correctly named father i.e. Thomas SCOTT and father Thomas is involved in the linen/drapery trade (as was Thomas Beattie in Ireland). Father Thomas was b ca 1825 in Dalkeith, Midlothian; he is the son of Allison (SHIELS) SCOTT who, in the 1851-1871 censuses, is recorded as the Widow of a Relief Church Minister. … We can’t find the family in 1841. And we haven’t found Thomas b ca 1865 or Thomas b ca 1825 in Scotland in 1891 or 1901 – perhaps the family had all gone to Ireland - perhaps after the death of Allison (SHIELS) SCOTT in 1871.
Now some thoughts and questions:
1. Does Ggpa Thomas Beattie’s middle name of Beattie appear anywhere other than on his mc?
2. What do you take as the meaning of the occupation of “Foreign Correspondent”? Perhaps it didn’t have the obvious meaning which we would give to it now? Perhaps Thomas Beattie was still in the linen trade – but dealing with exports to foreign countries? Do the addresses in the electoral rolls give any clue whether this might be the case?
3. Melonsmum, do you have any further info about the portrait. Where does the date of ca 1840 come from. Where does the info that it’s your Ggggpa (i.e. Thomas Beattie’s grandfather) come from? Is there any more information about it at all?
Do let me know if I've missed something 
JAP
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