|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6
|
 |
|
Author
|
Topic: The Lusitania Sinking & Philips Park Cemetery (Read 4421 times)
|
Aulus
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 988
The black sheep: Florence Stevenson née Hampson
|
Hi Ken, I wonder if this little Falls River group, were somehow related to each other, or was it the start of an Ex-Pat conclave.  Dave
I think quite a few went from the Blackburn/Darwen area to Fall River, Massachussets (I know a few of mine did, and so did the family of the author of that book (recommended) Road to Nab End) as the cotton industry was big there too.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens Marylebone & Sussex: Cole London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman Bowland: Marsden, Noble Shropshire: Guest Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
bursy
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 680
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Ken,
Might be worthwhile adding this family to your check list, they survived the sinking, but the story might have altered in the telling.
John & Gerda Welsh (nee Nielson)
31 Carlton Terrace
Gorton
Dave
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
BarbaraH
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1128
|
Was about to say the same thing Dave!  I was thinking .. I suppose it would cost quite a bit to transport a victim from Ireland where Lusitanis sank, to Manchester. So this family were perhaps likely to be in the first class cabins? Or survivors, rather than victims 'on the day'?
In this list they are John and Gerda Welsh:
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/articles/lusitania.php
I know it says titanica, but it is about Lusitania! It also has a description of Mary Higginbottom of Falls River. Scroll down to details for Mrs Phoebe Amory, (who met Mary on board) The Then on Lest We Forget Part 2 of the same site, there is a photo of Mary
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/articles/lusitania2.php
 Barbara
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Newton Heath/Failsworth: Greenwood, McGibbon, Fishwick, Berry LANCS: Holt, Greenwood, Greenhalgh, Ballard, Threlfall,Fishwick, Berry CHES/DERBYS: Holt, Goodwin, Grant, Vernon LANARK & regions: McGibbon, Bryson, Smith, Campbell YORKS/LINCS: Taylor, Stamford, Fishwick. Bartholomew Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
bursy
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 680
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Barbara
John & Gerda were both 3rd Class passengers and they did survive
If you have a look on the site I found in Reply #6, there is also a photo of Phoebe
Dave
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
BarbaraH
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1128
|
I have re-read my post and find I am burbling Dave  trying to say 2 things at once!
What I meant to say was -
1 if someone - don't know who yet - had perished on the Lusitania and their bodies were recovered in Ireland, it would presumably cost a lot to transport them to their home cemetery. So if victims had been carried from Ireland to Manchester for burial, chances are they would be among the more well-off passengers.
then while typing that, I found the same John and Gerda that you did and thought
2 another explanation for a burial of Lusitania passengers in Philips Park might be that they had in fact survived the original disaster and come to live in Manchester. And as you say, the Lusitania story was altered in the telling later on.
Barbara
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Newton Heath/Failsworth: Greenwood, McGibbon, Fishwick, Berry LANCS: Holt, Greenwood, Greenhalgh, Ballard, Threlfall,Fishwick, Berry CHES/DERBYS: Holt, Goodwin, Grant, Vernon LANARK & regions: McGibbon, Bryson, Smith, Campbell YORKS/LINCS: Taylor, Stamford, Fishwick. Bartholomew Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1893
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi
From the same link to Lest We Forget 1, have we got the Williams family from Manchester, England?
John and Annie Millman Williams were married in Manchester England in 1896.
Emigrated to New Jersey, April 1904.
John joined Cunard as a steward and returned to England on the last completed voyage.
Annie and six children were on the fatal voyage.
Edith, John Edward, George Albert, Ethel, Florence and David. Possibly three more.
Only John Edward and Edith survived. Edith married and divorced in the US and died there.
That leaves John Edward and father John. They would be survivers of a family who perished. Various fairly sad suggestions about the family.
A brilliant link though, thank you!
Emms
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1893
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi again.
Splitting this for simplicity.
Another couple of thoughts about cost.
When I was researching a friend's WW1 family, and looking for more details for one feasible entry on the CWGC Roll of Honour, I rang CWGC and had quite an intyeresting conversation.
The lady said that there would be a choice for any war casualties (or their families at least), as to whether they were buried where they fell or were returned home when it was feasible. I can't remember the details, but it seemed to apply to Irish dying of wounds in England, so presumably the other way round from Cobh to England.
We didn't discuss who paid or whether it was only for the military.
Another thought. A couple of times recently I've had conversations about funerals which took place considerably later and WW!, and basically it was another world.
For most people, they had to get the deceased from where they died to the burial site, themselves, by carrrying, train etc. So if there was a long journey, they simply travelled with the deceased.
No niceties or fancy arrangements and privacy. So presumably if there were family coming back to Britain, the cost would be no more than the cost of their own fare.
A daunting thought, but in keeping with most of WW1 I guess.
Best wishes
Emms
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MancsMan
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2119
|
Hi
I have just emailed Eric Sauder the author of "R.M.S. Lusitania: The Ship and Her Record"
Lets see if we get a reply, it's just another direction to check
Dave/Barbara
I cannot see a Gerda Welsh in the BMD index for the 2nd June 1961 (what a sad story) - but did find 2 Gertrude Walsh 1 - in Hasligden and the other in Southport 
Emms
No burial of a Williams after 8th May 1915
I am starting to suspect they were survivors who died years later, but not giving up just yet.
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Hilton - Wiltshire, Prestwich, Manchester Millington - Manchester, Birmingham Harris - Manchester, Salford, Southern Rhodesia, Aston Manor Birmingham, Temple Balsall, Knowle Jones - Higher Broughton, Cheetham Hill, Denbighshire Lawton - Prestwich, Manchester Smith - Manchester Carey - Manchester Cotterell - Lambeth, London Fletcher - Middleton, Manchester Capper - Manchester Fancy a chin wag on Faceb**k http://www.rootschat.com/links/07bv/ |
|
|
emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1893
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi
Sounds like some interesting stuff.
I can't wait for the reply!
Yes, if it were the Williams, it would be the two Johns whenever they died, possibly years later, but they would be from a family who perished because of the little children and the wife who died in the sinking.
I'll look forward to you reply though.
Good night
Emms
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
MancsMan
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2119
|
I've had that reply from the Lustiania historian with a possible target person
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your e-mail. Interesting project you're working on and one of particular interest to me because one of my research in finding graves of Lusitania victims and survivors.
I looked through my cemetery list, and I didn't see anything for Philips Park, but I did find a man by the name of George Arthur Gilpin, who I have down as being buried in Manchester but with no cemetery listed. I wonder if that 's who it might be? He was lost, and his body was recovered.
I hope this helps, and if there is anything else I can do, please let me know. I'd also like to know if you have found or are looking for other Lustiania graves.
Regards,
Eric Sauder
www.northatlanticrun.com
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Hilton - Wiltshire, Prestwich, Manchester Millington - Manchester, Birmingham Harris - Manchester, Salford, Southern Rhodesia, Aston Manor Birmingham, Temple Balsall, Knowle Jones - Higher Broughton, Cheetham Hill, Denbighshire Lawton - Prestwich, Manchester Smith - Manchester Carey - Manchester Cotterell - Lambeth, London Fletcher - Middleton, Manchester Capper - Manchester Fancy a chin wag on Faceb**k http://www.rootschat.com/links/07bv/ |
|
|
MancsMan
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2119
|
According to the passenger list
GILPIN, Mr. George Arthur, age 47, British, London, England, Saloon/1st class passenger
Question
If someone dies at sea how is the death recorded?
The BMD index shows nothing for this person
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Hilton - Wiltshire, Prestwich, Manchester Millington - Manchester, Birmingham Harris - Manchester, Salford, Southern Rhodesia, Aston Manor Birmingham, Temple Balsall, Knowle Jones - Higher Broughton, Cheetham Hill, Denbighshire Lawton - Prestwich, Manchester Smith - Manchester Carey - Manchester Cotterell - Lambeth, London Fletcher - Middleton, Manchester Capper - Manchester Fancy a chin wag on Faceb**k http://www.rootschat.com/links/07bv/ |
|
|
emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1893
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Ken
this looks facinating!
Have you tried the deaths at Sea part of the GRO Index. Don't think it's on Ancestry, but it's in a separate part at the end if the fiche index. In our library it occupeis four boxes of fiche along with military bmd, consular bmd, events in the air etc.
Also, I think it's on Findmypast.com. Sopme one might have that.
I was going to say it would be on the maifest, but of course that's not much use here!!
Actually, is he on the CWGC list? My James Hoey on the Lusitania is.
Just some ideas.
Thank you again for my fantastic photo's of Moston.
Emms
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
BarbaraH
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1128
|
I just had a quick look on FMP Marine Death Index 1903 - 1965; I couldn't see any Gilpins in 1915,1916 1917 or 1918. (Don't know when they would have found the body or how long it would have taken to register).
Don't have full FMP membership and only had a few credits left! So I didn't know where else to look on that site - but its a start What are consular bmds? FMP had those. Might he be in there?
Barbara
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Newton Heath/Failsworth: Greenwood, McGibbon, Fishwick, Berry LANCS: Holt, Greenwood, Greenhalgh, Ballard, Threlfall,Fishwick, Berry CHES/DERBYS: Holt, Goodwin, Grant, Vernon LANARK & regions: McGibbon, Bryson, Smith, Campbell YORKS/LINCS: Taylor, Stamford, Fishwick. Bartholomew Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
|
|
MancsMan
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 2119
|
Cheers Emms & Barbara
Sadly he is not on the CWGC site - tried backtracking via census reports, and it looked promising to start off with
| DATA REMOVED DUE TO BREACH OF CENSUS COPYRIGHT |
Cant find George
Mother has moved back to Leeds with Lily and Son-in-Law
Walter is living with his wife/family in Salford
My thinking is, if this is the right George A Gilpin to which the email relates.
He may have gone to the the USA (but cant find him on the Ellisisland website). 
And unless Walter moved to Manchester he will be buried in Salford somewhere, seems more likely his brother would collect his body.
Just got to keep on digging
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: Thursday 13 November 08 18:25 UTC (UK) by MancsMan »
|
Logged
|
Hilton - Wiltshire, Prestwich, Manchester Millington - Manchester, Birmingham Harris - Manchester, Salford, Southern Rhodesia, Aston Manor Birmingham, Temple Balsall, Knowle Jones - Higher Broughton, Cheetham Hill, Denbighshire Lawton - Prestwich, Manchester Smith - Manchester Carey - Manchester Cotterell - Lambeth, London Fletcher - Middleton, Manchester Capper - Manchester Fancy a chin wag on Faceb**k http://www.rootschat.com/links/07bv/ |
|
|
liverpool annie
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 13085
Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Can I please go off topic and give you two brothers from the Liverpool area ??
Birkenhead-born Leslie Morton, aged 18, has a unique place in history for using his eyes. He was the lookout who first spotted the torpedo which sank the Lusitania as she headed for Liverpool on 7 May 1915. It was just after lunchtime on a bright, sunny day and the sea was calm when the German submarine U-20 launched its deadly attack.
As the great ship passed the lighthouse at the Old Head of Kinsale, southern Ireland, Leslie was stationed on the bow of the liner. Suddenly, he spotted thin lines of foam racing towards the ship and shouted: “Torpedoes coming in on the starboard”. A large explosion shook the Cunard vessel as the torpedo blew a large hole in her right side. The Lusitania began to sink very rapidly at the bow and within 18 minutes she was on the bottom of the Irish Sea. A total of 1,195 people died in the tragedy.
Leslie Morton and his brother Clifford, who was nearly 19 at the time of the disaster (they were not twins).
Both brothers saved many lives and Leslie was later considered to be the “outstanding hero of the Lusitania disaster”.
They joined the crew of the Lusitania as ordinary seamen in New York. The brothers were among eight crew from the Liverpool sailing ship Naiad who jumped ship to join Lusitania. All planned to join the Royal Navy once they returned to England. The Morton brothers were the only ones to survive the sinking.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 6
|
|
|
|
|
the_morton_boys.jpg