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Topic: David Balharry - Scotland to Chile (Read 1618 times)
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Hi AMBLY!! 
Yes, definitely looks like a batch - the IGI record recorded in England for Jose David reflects the christening date on the IGI record originating from Chile, so it looks like that date at least is consistent. I can't find IGI Chile records for the births Rosa or Josefa unfortunately, at least not under Balharry. This info doesat least tie-in with the details I got from Maria for the children of 'her' David - she told me that the children of David and Benigna were:
Benjamin
Elena (this must be Josefa Elena)
Victoria
Rosa
Margarita (possibly named after her grandmother??  )
and 2 others whose names I don't yet have!
I know this isn't where we were concentrating, but still!! I'm wondering though, if these children are being registered 'back home', would this be usual if the father David had been born in Chile, son of David born in Scotland?
And yes, the family in Chile are very definitely Catholic!
Lass x
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Ooooo look, you've found lots of new avenues while I was busy typing!!
Strangely, whilst my Spanish is pretty much non-existent, I can make out most of the gist of that page, and whilst my cousins' English is faultless, I do use babelfish now and then to at least make the effort to use some Spanish in our conversations!
At least now I can point Maria in a specific direction of research - for me at least, specifically the marriage record for David and Benigna in the hope that it might confirm the parents names. Unless I can find the relevant batch online........
Thanks for sticking this out with me, it's great to have someone to 'bounce' off!!!
Lass x
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AMBLY
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2971
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Lass,
Just a thought - Would the family have also been Catholic in Scotland too? Or do you think the Catholicism came about by exposure and then conversion to that predominant faith in CHile - perhaps via marriage....
cheers
AMBLY
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4359
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Hello again Lass & AMBLY,
Well, I've seen some monumental LDS indexing "stuff-ups" in my time but this one takes the cake 
I hasten to add that I am a huge admirer of the genealogical indexing which has been done by the LDS - our research would be impossible without the wonderful records which they make available online and through their family history centres. I am ever grateful to them. 
The old "controlled extraction program" of the LDS was excellent with very few errors 
But quality control on batches inserted in recent years seems to be non-existent e.g. wrong places obviously entered and "filled down" with no checking at all. I've pointed some of them out to the LDS (email contact on Familysearch) but there seems to be a complete lack of comprehension coupled with an almost total unwillingness to investigate, explain, improve, correct, etc ... 
I had checked out the source and film notes before posting the following earlier:
The baptism of a son, Jose David BALHARRY, to David B & Benigna in 1878 in San Isidro, Santiago, Chile is in the IGI - perhaps that actual record might reveal something (occupation of that David B, godparents, etc?). I guess the film/fiche could be ordered in to your local LDS Family History centre.
But it hadn't occurred to me to check whether the same entry appeared in other countries - why on earth would it! How fortunate, Lass, that you found names and dates for siblings (as well as him) in this batch which idiotically purports to come from "Milton-Bryant"!
Just to elaborate on the whole indexing mess, the South American and the Milton-Bryant batches each have the same batch number and the same source number. The source number (1798170), of course, leads in both instances to the Chilean source.
However ...
- if one looks at the batch number (C003791) selecting South America as the region, one gets a list of 1558 names all in San Isidro
- if one looks at the same batch number (C003791) but selecting British Isles as the region, one gets a list of 3058 names (i.e. apparently including the 1558 but also with additional entries) and all purporting to be in "Milton-Bryant, Bedfordshire"! Incidentally, all are pretty obviously South American names.
One wonders how any data entry person, however inexperienced, could have managed so many errors at once!! 
This is obviously a widespread problem ...
I tried the next batch number - C003792.
This produces a list of baptisms purporting to be in Milton-Bryant, Bedfordshire. But a quick check finds that it's pretty obviously a mixed list of Anglo names (all typed in upper case) and likely South American names (all typed in lower case).
The source number leads to Milton-Bryant records.
However, take one of the likely South American names - say Felipa BALQUI.
Search for Felipa in All Resources - there are two records, one is the one purporting to be in "Milton-Bryant" and the other is for Peru. The Peru one has a different batch number (C023844) and is a list of baptisms in Amazonas, Peru - it has no source number at all ...
That noise you hear is JAP pulling her hair out while sighing in utter despair because past experience shows that there is absolutely no point in drawing all the above errors to the LDS ... Even LDS members who run Family History centres get no joy when they try ...
Anyway, the whole point of the above is to say "Forget Milton-Bryant!" - and best not to mention it to the Chileans. It is clearly just another of the increasing numbers of LDS indexing errors. I guess just be grateful for the additional names of Jose David's sibling - however flawed the location.
All the best,
JAP
PS: Well, I've submitted a Contact Form on the FamilySearch site reporting this particular mess - rather more bluntly than on previous occasions. But don't hold your breath.
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Hi JAP
Ohhh please don't pull out any more hair, I don't want to be partly responsible for your baldness!!!
I understand what you've said in your post about the indexing, what I don't get is why Milton Bryant? Am I missing something obvious here? The other thing that puzzles me is that whilst I can find the siblings in the Milton Bryant IGI records, I can't find them in the Chile IGI records. It was actually a lucky accident to find them in the first place!
Anyhow, I shall move on from the dirty word (Milton Bryant!!) and see what other progress can be made today!
Lass x
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4359
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Hi Lass & AMBLY,
Yes, surely David agreed to convert because of his wife.
And whether David was Church of Scotland or one of the breakaway Presbyterian groups (or, indeed, something else) we simply don't know. The marriage of David snr and Margaret JAFFREY was clearly in the established CofS but they might have subsequently joined a breakaway Presbyterian group and that may well be why we can't find their children on SP or the IGI.
I've had an acknowledgement of my Contact Form to the LDS - that always comes immediately!! But I don't expect any sensible reply (if, indeed, they d reply further). I'm very very sorry to have to say this because I'm so very gratefully indebted to the wonderful records and films of the LDS which I have used for umpteen years.
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4359
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I understand what you've said in your post about the indexing, what I don't get is why Milton Bryant? Am I missing something obvious here? The other thing that puzzles me is that whilst I can find the siblings in the Milton Bryant IGI records, I can't find them in the Chile IGI records. It was actually a lucky accident to find them in the first place!
Oh Lass, please don't ask impossible questions
And no, you are definitely NOT missing anything obvious (or even arcane) as far as I know.
Why Milton Bryant?? Well, why not (or Timbuktu or Woop-Woop or ...)?? If these new thoroughly incompetent LDS indexers/data entry people (subject, it seems, to no double-checking or quality control) are going to get things so incredibly and unutterably wrong, why not Milton Bryant - perhaps an incompetent data entry person was entering many South American records and stupidly entered MB for some or all - and then "filled down" on an Excel worksheet or similar.
As for why some records appear and not others - again, why not when the recent LDS data entry processes are plainly just so very very incompetent.
A possibly related question (though I suspect this is a quite separate matter from earlier years) is why, for so many many parishes in the British Isles, we find all the females in the online IGI but none of the males (who are most certainly recorded in the OPRs) - this is a fact! But the explanation of this might be quite different - certainly nobody (including senior LDS family historians) has been able to elicit an answer.
If only the LDS would EXPLAIN!! Many many people (including senior LDS family historians) have asked - but no answer has been the stern reply (so to speak).
If you wish I could search for other related threads where similar problems have been raised in the past.
But truly - I believe that the Milton-Bryant location, and the entry of some but not all of the individuals is nothing more than yet another monumental LDS indexing "stuff-up".
I do wonder what must the LDS members involved in the meticulous original controlled extraction program think - if they are no longer alive they must be revolving in their graves and sadly despairing in Mormon Heaven.
Sorry, Lass, but I really can't explain further. To me it's so obviously yet another indexing stuff-up 
And I really would take no notice of that stupid Milton Bryant location ...
JAP (polishing the newly bald pate!)
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Sorry oh bald one, I didn't truly expect an answer as such to my questions, just musing aloud!! I just wondered, further to my previous comment, if perhaps MB was connected in some way with the collation of consular records, but it does certainly appear on the face of it that it's a rather large error. I guess since the whole LDS entry exercise is such a huge undertaking mistakes have to be expected (if not entirely accepted!) and the wealth of information available makes up for that I dare say. Still, it's frustrating and obviously a very sore point with you!
Never mind, I'm optimistic that we'll find more information to help fill in the gaps along the way, and I'm eternally grateful for your help
Lass x
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4359
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Hi Lass,
The very occasional typo was no problem in the old LDS controlled extraction program - which ended yonks and yonks ago, and which comprises the vast amount of the wonderful and accurate extracted entries in the IGI.
However, the LDS seems recently to have started to enter extracted data again (yes, quite a piddling amount of data compared with the vast quantities of the old controlled extraction program). The "sore point" with me is very specific - namely that quality control on the newly entered data seems to be non-existent and (sadly) that huge errors abound. And that the LDS aren't interested in learning about (much less dealing with) the errors in the newly entered data - even when presented with proof positive of them.
Perhaps the more users who contact the LDS about the problem, the more likely they are to address it?
Perhaps you yourself might like to submit a Contact Form and query the 'apparent' discrepancies you have found. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03ek
All the best,
Baldly,
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Thanks for the link JAP, I'll make use of it in the hope that the more people who feedback, the sooner they might pay attention
I wonder if either you or AMBLY might know what route our David and Margaret might have taken to get to Chile? I have assumed, rightly or wrongly, that they would have gone via the US and have been taking a look through the Castle Garden records. I have found a Margaret Jaffors who arrived in Saint John (I assume New Brunswick) in 1834. She is recorded as being 32 years old on arrival which makes her dob c. 1802. Now I may be new to this game, but I know perfectly well that this isn't necessarily something to get excited over, since there's absolutely no way to verify it's our girl. The dates just fit so nicely, it would be lovely to think it's that easy!! I can't trace David at all, but I'm still trying variations on the surname spelling which are bound to be an issue with his emigration, since I have been unable to verify anything about him other than his marriage to Margaret. Grrrrr!
Lass x
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Hi again all!
I had a very interesting chat with cousin Maria last night and now perhaps have some further avenues to investigate.....
Before I go on, to avoid any confusion, I will refer to David who married Margaret Jaffrey as David snr and to his son (we presume) as David jnr and to his son as Jose David. I don't know about anyone else, but my brain couldn't cope!!
Maria had previously told me that they understood that David jnr had 'gone' to Chile to work on building the railway. He is also understood to have died in an accident at sea, perhaps as a naval employee.
In our chat last night however, another interesting snippet of information came out - apparently Jose David was expelled from the Chilean army for being a Mormon.
Now, Maria vehemently denies that he was Mormon and insists, as does her grandfather, that Jose David was indeed Catholic, even having attended a Catholic school. However, aware as I am of the stigma of the past of being a non-Catholic Chilean, I have to assume there is an element of bias in Maria's assertion. To quote Maria, "years ago... not been catolic... was an insult...".
To be fair though, her grandfather did say that if you were a foreigner back then, you were automatically presumed to be Mormon, whether it was true or not, and I can see that being the case.
However, this had started me wondering whether Jose David was in fact Mormon, courtesy of his father, and his father before him. It could be that David jnr was Mormon and either converted to Catholicism on his marriage to Benigna, or married in the Catholic church to keep his lovely lady and family happy!
If that was the case, it would seem likely, to my inexperienced eye, that David snr had converted to Church of LDS and that this was the reason for his and Margaret's emigration.
I was also thinking, if Jose David joined the Chilean army, they were either not aware of his foreign roots, or that he was Mormon. If the Mormon label was applied to him it would, it appears, be for one of those reasons or the other. He may indeed have been Catholic and it was actually the discovery of his ancestral origins that turned the tide against him.....
Too many questions, I don't really know where to go from here! Any thoughts? I've been accessing LDS for the IGI records since it was pointed out to me as a great source, but I haven't looked at it from the point of view of actual Church of LDS records - does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to go about exploring this now?
Lass x
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4359
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Hi again Lass,
LDS MEMBERSHIP
That's an interesting story - but whether it offers any possibility for tracing any of the BALHARRYs is another matter ...
A Google for
Mormon + Chile
gets lots of hits. Have you tried this?
One hit suggests that Mormons didn't start converting people in Chile until the 1950s.
From the Salt Lake Tribune at:
http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_3661412
"VALPARAISO, Chile - LDS Apostle Parley P. Pratt, his pregnant wife Phoebe, and Elder Rufus C. Allen arrived in this bustling seaport Nov. 8, 1851. They had come to Chile to see if it was yet ripe for Mormon missionary work.
.....
The Pratts and Allen gave up on Chile after four months and returned to San Francisco. They had converted no one. It would take another 100 years before Mormon missionaries would reach Chile's shores"
Family folklore is fine but can sometimes get a bit confused. Do they have any documentation of Jose David's service in the Chilean army (it might even give some info about his father). Also do they have any documentation about David jnr's working life, about his marriage (I wonder whether the record of his marriage to Benigna states his occupation and nationality), and about his death (death certificate, newspaper report, etc). And there's still Jose David's baptismal records which just might contain clues ..
ROUTE TO CHILE
This has rather stumped me. I did find a Google mention somewhere which said that Valparaiso was a port at which ships going from England to San Francisco often stopped at that time ...
Cheers,
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Hi JAP
I did have a look at google to connect Mormons with Chile and couldn't find anything that substantiated my thoughts. Also, LDS didn't get to Dundee, Angus (where David snr married Margaret Jaffrey) until 1851 which is too late in the day. Of course they may have moved from Dundee, I spent much of last night scouring IGI for David Balharry's with lots of variations in the name spelling and came up with some that I hadn't previously tried, finding more than a few Davids in England.
What I can't get my head around is, if Jose David was not Mormon, then if he was expelled from the army it would suggest it was because of his roots - I find that idea unlikely I have to say, since they would be kicking him out because of his grandfather's origins (assuming we are putting the pieces together correctly and David jnr was born in Chile). I know all too well not to rely too heavily on family history when it comes by word of mouth, although this did come from Jose David's son, so I'm willing to accept that there's likely a lot of truth to it, in some way or other.
I seem to remember Valparaiso cropping up in my conversations with Maria, must check that out......
Maria has agreed to go to Santiago or Concepcion to have a look at the records, I've armed her with batch/source details so hopefully she'll find something that might take us a step further. I'll keep you informed!
Lass x
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Lass
RootsChat Senior
Offline
Posts: 369
my beautiful mum
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Hiya
I apologise if this is becoming personal log - I found myself looking through the thread as a reminder of info today, it's like my own note pad!!!
I found an IGI rcord today for the following:
Baptism Record
Jane Jeffrey Balhary
30/03/1839
St Marylebone, London
Parents: David Balhary and Margaret Jeffrey
I took a look at the English 1841 census but can't find Jane, David or Margaret at all. I really suspect this is our folks but again can't find anything to substantiate it. I also took a look on FreeBMD but couldn't find this baptism entry.
Lass x
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