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Topic: Invisible Hoey's Salford. Unfilmed 1851? (Read 217 times)
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
I'm hoping someone can help me find Thomas and Eliza Hoey i8n 1851. They had a large family baptised at St Mary's Mulberry St, (The Little Gem).
The earliest I have is early 1850's , so they may not have been married by 1851, though I've not managed to pin they down individually, or they may have moved areas.
Her maiden name is Burgess or similar, but if she wasn't married,, it could be indexed as all sorts looking at the baptismal register. I'm thinking though that they may be on the unfilmed 1851, so would some kind person have a few minutes to look, please?
Thank you all.
Good night.
Emms
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DS
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 3004
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Hi Emms
On the 1851 Unfilmed Census Index there is...
Thomas Hoey Head M 28 Journeyman Saddler Ireland Drogheda
Eliza Ann Hoey Wife M 26 Dress Maker Ireland Moneghan
3 Springfield Lane, Greengate, Salford. (HO107/2223)
I am not sure if anyone else is living with them (I do not have enough credit left to look at the full entry) but perhaps when Bursy comes online he might be able to check for you.
DS 
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi DS
Thank is wonderful. I nearly didn't bother you asking because I didn't have an earlier birth, and if I stretched my imaginatuion there was an odd one who would fit Thomas and Eliza might not have come from Ireland.
That is so utterly entirely and totally them though!
He and most of his relations were up to their ears in saddlery, harness making etc. I only have a few entries a place in Ireland, apart from Dublin, and the main possibility is Drogheda. Brilliant!
If anyone else does get chance to look up the full entry it'd be great, but this is wonderful.
Thank you very much
Emms
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SandraC
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2131
Isabella Annie with Brenda
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Hi Emms & DS
1851 unfilmed Salford Greengate HO 107/2223
3 Springfield Lane
Thomas Hoey; head; mar; 28; journeyman saddler; Ireland, Drogheda
Eliza Ann do; wife; mar; 26; dressmaker; Ireland, Moneghan
Mary do; dau; 7 mo; Lancashire, Hulme, Manchester
Ellen Cassidy; aunt; unm; 67; servant; Ireland, Co Cavan
Patsy Hill; lodger; w; 74; formerly kept porter stores; Worcestershire, Kidderminster
Mary Greham; unm; 23; serv; Scotland, Linlithgow
Regards
SandraC
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Researching Clark, Holt, Threlfall, Platt, Walker, Bowers, Culshaw in Manchester, Salford, Ormskirk & Southport. Also, Craggs, Hamer, Sampson, Hesketh, McNamara, Hodson. All Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi sandra.
Thank you. That's really appreciated. Ooh, a relative with a different name, too.
Thank you again, Sandra and DS
Emms
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi again
I've been taking another look at that. Thinking about it now it's cooled off a bit, it's even betterm than I thought.
Ellen Cassidy is an unmarried aunt.
If it means literally what it says, and censuses often don't I know, but it could do, occasionally, then Thomas mother could be a Cassidy. I've had that name before - possibly a godparent.
Could I impose on you again? Could someone fill in the blanks for me please?
Could you explain about these unfilmed pages? Are they the same as the flood damaged pages?
Are there some pages which have not been filmed and are not on the discs of unfilmed either?
Is this only 1861 or are there similarly damaged pages on the 1861 or other censuses for the area? Is it just Salford that's involved?
Thank you again.
Emms
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SandraC
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2131
Isabella Annie with Brenda
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Hi Emms
The Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society have undertaken this massive project - three cheers for them 
"Much of the 1851 census for Manchester, Salford and the surrounding area was damaged by water while in storage making it impossible to film the returns which are also too fragile for public use. MLFHS have over several years worked at The National Archives to transcribe these returns. Each CD contains a full transcript of the unfilmed portion of the area described. Ultraviolet lighting has been used to maximise readability. Each CD contains surname/forename and street indexes. All are in Adobe Acobat format with a copy of Acrobat reader supplied on each CD. Note some of these CDs contain more data than the earlier microfiche publications." http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/Bookshop/index.html
The amount recovered has varied across the different districts, from 48% up to 98%, so there are still sadly quite a lot of areas & entries which are lost.
Greengate they recovered about 83% of the entries. The problem extends across Manchester & Salford, to Ashton under Lyne, Oldham & Prestwich.
I think that there are odd bits of missing film in other decades census returns & the database providers usually give a list, but I think this is the biggest gap, luckily for us 
Regards
SandraC
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Logged
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Researching Clark, Holt, Threlfall, Platt, Walker, Bowers, Culshaw in Manchester, Salford, Ormskirk & Southport. Also, Craggs, Hamer, Sampson, Hesketh, McNamara, Hodson. All Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Sandra.
Thank you very much for the detailed reply. I reakised there were some damaged returns but This has given me a much clearer idea. The problem is over a much wider area than I realised and I was only just suspecting that there were some parts that are not recovered at all.
An even greater debt than I realised to MLFHS and thank you again and for all the help from all of you with unfilmed census returns
Emms
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi DS and Sandra.
I've been looking back over what you've given me.
The daughter Maria M/ Mary M , I think later married a Mr Dunn. (1881 census). Someone on Rootschat in a reply asked me about hte links to the Dunn family. There are some later ones too.
Also, I had Ellen Cassidy down as simply a visitor, born Ireland in 1861, so you've given me a lot more detail there, both of you.
Thank you again.
Emms
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Toronto
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 90
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The daughter Mary was born in Hulme Manchester in 1850. Have you considered if this chap might have done leather work for the local Cavalry barracks in Hulme?
Also check the local Trade Directories for that time period to see if he is listed.
Cheers
Mike Morris
Toronto Canada Ex manchester
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PARSONAGE.
BOWLER
MATTLEY
WESTERMAN
SPENCER
MORRIS
FITZMORRIS
SMITH
WELLS
BROADY.,,,,,, Manchester and Cheshire
SENIOR,,,,,,,,,Cheshire
SPROSTON....Cheshire
HUNT,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire
THORNBER,,,,,Preston and Lancashire
BREAKELL,,,,,,Preston and Lancashire
ATKIN,,,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
ASHTON,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
DANIEL,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
JUDGE,,,,,,,,,,, Manchester and Ireland
TIDSWELL,,,,, Manchester
DUFFY ,,,,,,,,,, Manchester and Sligo I
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Mike
Thank you for your reply. I've looked at trade directories, but your local knowledge of the military is ahead of me. He is part of a whole clan of saddlers/ harnessmakers etc.
In my ignorance, I'm just gradually becoming more aware of the significance ofhorses and sddlery etc right up to WW!. Some of the clan came through Dublin where I'm told there had been major facilities for the trade of leather and horses, and also horses for the military. Most of the clan trace back to the Drogheda/ Louth area.
My own line's saddlers ,mostly went to Australia and carried on the business and one cousin carried on his trade in the army.
However, I hadn't really thought about that being the link in Manchester/ Salford, which is where my direct line stayed. Presumably Hulme was a large barracks then? I always thought it strange so many of the clan had work in Manchester / Salford. That would explain it. Thank you very much.
Thank you again for getting in touch.
This is what I like about Rootschat. People who know what it's really like in a place and what was going on.
best wishes
Emms
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Toronto
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 90
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Do keep in mind, the method of shipping goods around the city was by horse and cart. In addition, Hulme is on the south border of the river Irwell. This river split Hulme, Manchester from Salford. Along this river was a fair chunk of industry. Goods were also shipped to tye coast along this river.
Sorry to put out a bit of a damper, But how about you get the daughters birth certificate, then contact me with the address shown in this certificate. I can look this up in my early maps. It will give a better insight as to where about they lived in Hulme.
Regards
Mike Morris
Toronto Canada
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PARSONAGE.
BOWLER
MATTLEY
WESTERMAN
SPENCER
MORRIS
FITZMORRIS
SMITH
WELLS
BROADY.,,,,,, Manchester and Cheshire
SENIOR,,,,,,,,,Cheshire
SPROSTON....Cheshire
HUNT,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire
THORNBER,,,,,Preston and Lancashire
BREAKELL,,,,,,Preston and Lancashire
ATKIN,,,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
ASHTON,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
DANIEL,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
JUDGE,,,,,,,,,,, Manchester and Ireland
TIDSWELL,,,,, Manchester
DUFFY ,,,,,,,,,, Manchester and Sligo I
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SandraC
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2131
Isabella Annie with Brenda
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Hi All
Interestingly the front cover of the MLFHS CD of the unfilmed Salford Regent Road 1851 census has an illustration by H E Tidmarsh of the Salford Foot Barracks, Regent Road - with soldiers mounted on horseback, complete with the man with two drums on a horse, coming down the street in front of a crowd!
It would be interesting to find Springfield Lane, Greengate, Salford in relation to the military installations.
Sadly, can't find any Hoey in the 1850 street directory 
Regards
SandraC
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Logged
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Researching Clark, Holt, Threlfall, Platt, Walker, Bowers, Culshaw in Manchester, Salford, Ormskirk & Southport. Also, Craggs, Hamer, Sampson, Hesketh, McNamara, Hodson. All Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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emmsthheight
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1031
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Sandra
Thank you again!
That image says a lot doesn't it? I asume it won't be a photograph at that stage, so for whoever did the drawing/painting at whatever date, this was evidently one of the first situations that sprung to mind to do a painting of. Som wherever the barracks were, certainly it had a great influence on this immediate area.
only to trace my own diect Hoey line, but to look at their little clan
Some of the Hoey clan were around at this stage, but they probably hadn't made their mark on the directories.
What I've really been trying to do, is not just to look at my own direct Hoey line, but to look at their little clan and see what was influencing where they went, and why they moved the way they did. Also to use the little group to trace back to where they came from in Ireland.
I always knew the potato famine was a main cause, from what my ggrandmother told her daughters and they told me, but that was all. Also I realised early on, that the only earlier Hoey references over here, were to the military, and the same has happened with my friend's Irish family. They worked with leather too.
Now I'm realising it's very likely to be to do with the leather trade, not just to do with availability of work, or a family military tradition.
Thank you very much.
The picture builds up!
Best wishes
Emms
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Toronto
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 90
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Springfield lane ran north from Greengate in 1844. See map attached.
Regent road is not close by it about 20 to 30 minutes walk almost south west from Springfield.
Mike Morris
Toronto Canada
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PARSONAGE.
BOWLER
MATTLEY
WESTERMAN
SPENCER
MORRIS
FITZMORRIS
SMITH
WELLS
BROADY.,,,,,, Manchester and Cheshire
SENIOR,,,,,,,,,Cheshire
SPROSTON....Cheshire
HUNT,,,,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire
THORNBER,,,,,Preston and Lancashire
BREAKELL,,,,,,Preston and Lancashire
ATKIN,,,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
ASHTON,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
DANIEL,,,,,,,,,,Cheshire and Manchester
JUDGE,,,,,,,,,,, Manchester and Ireland
TIDSWELL,,,,, Manchester
DUFFY ,,,,,,,,,, Manchester and Sligo I
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Springfield_lane_in_1844._North_of_Greengate.JPG