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Topic: My latest mystery: Maria Brown/Ruck/Guest (Read 617 times)
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Aulus
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 815
The black sheep: Florence Stevenson née Hampson
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When I got the death certificate for Frederick William Guest (a chemist, died 29 Jan 1892, 12 Great Dover Street, Newington), I was intrigued to see that the informant was his wife, but not the wife I was expecting.
I quickly tracked down the death of the first wife (Matilda Guest, née Jarvis, d. 28 March 1882, Bloomsbury) and Frederick's very hasty remarriage:
Frederick William Guest married Maria Ruck April 30th 1882 at St George the Martyr Southwark. Married by licence.
He is a widower; she is a widow.
He is a chemist; she has no occupation
Both are of "full age"
Both are resident in the parish of St George the Martyr, Southwark.
Witnesses: William Gleman(?) Crop(?) and Clara Brown
Her father is given as Stephen William Brown (deceased), a builder.
So she must have started out life as Maria Brown.
What's intrigued me about her is that I can't find anything about her before her marriage to Frederick William Guest.
I can't see her on the 1861, 1871 or 1881 censuses. Or the 1901.
On the 1891 census (RG12/352, fol. 6, p. 5), she seems to be aged 32 (her husband is 66!) and is living at 261 Borough High Street.
There are a couple of marriages in 1872, both of a Maria Brown to a William Ruck, one in Thanet Q2 and one in Sevenoaks (Q4), though that means the age 32 in 1891 is a bit under what it should be (which of course might well be the case).
I'd appreciate another pair eyes to see if she can be spotted on the censuses.
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Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens Marylebone & Sussex: Cole London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman Bowland: Marsden, Noble Shropshire: Guest Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4364
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Hello Aulus,
No, unfortunately I haven't found her.
But just a few comments.
I looked at your other posts about Frederick and it seems that he was born 1809 in Clare, Suffolk. So he should have been about 82 in the 1891 - not the stated age of 66 (and I see that his age is given as 65 on the FreeBDM death entry in 1892)!! All of which makes one even more suspicious about Maria's stated age of 32 in the 1891.
The re-marriage was certainly very hasty (wife's death in March, re-marriage in April).
I then looked at 1881 only to find that Frederick and first wife Matilda were apparently living apart by then.
In 1871, Frederick (62), wife Matilda and unmarried daughter Matilda were all living together (visitors in another househole).
By 1881, Frederick was Head (72), married, but alone at 126 Newington Causeway, Southwark.
Matilda was at 43 Hunter St, London, Middlesex, Head and married; unmarried daughter Matilda was with her as were several boarders, etc.
So it rather looks as though Fred took up with Maria at some stage and, once Matilda died, quickly 'made a respectable woman of her'. But as for finding Maria ...
Incidentally, I wonder whether Fred left a Will.
Good luck,
JAP
PS: Daughter Matilda probably the Matilda GUEST death, age 43 (a bit young), Wandsworth, Jun qtr 1885.
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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AMBLY
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2998
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi Aulus
Certainley a mystery 
And both those 1872 marriage are of a William RUCK to a Maria BROWN it seems, as the other couples on the 2 pages seem to be found together on the Census...hmmm!
The first of the 2 marriages is a William Denny RUCK in Thanet...
A William Denny RUCK died Dec Qtr 1881 in St Saviour district, age 61 - makes him born abt 1819/20, and he's on the IGI as born Sep 1820 St Saviour...
In the 1881, I think he is at
RG11/ Piece: 538 / Folio: 35 / Pg 2
as W.D RUCK age 60, Out of Employ, b St Saviour - on his own, but listed as married......
Then - we have the following - could this be the couple from the SevenOaks marriage in 1872....
1881: Tiger Hall - Meopham, Kent
RG11 / Piece: 878 / Folio: 29 / Pg 22
Head: William RUCK 38, Gamekeeper, b Halling Kent
Wife: Mair RUCK 33, b Luton Beds
Son: William RUCK 13, Scholar, b Chatham Kent
Son: James RUCK 8, Scholar, b Sevenoaks Kent
Dau: Annie RUCK 6, Scholar, b Meopham Kent
Same family - sans father - in 1891 (despite place of birth change, and Annie changed to Amy....??)
1891: High Street - Rainham Kent
RG12 / Piece: 717 / Folio 116 / pg 2
Head: Maria RUCK 39, Charwoman, b Brasted Kent
SOn: James RUCK 18, unm, Bargeman, b SevenOaks Kent
Dau: Amy RUCK 16, general Servant (Domestic) b Meopham Kent
(Note - Maria has no Marital status filled in - someone has written in LATER, S for Single, different handwriting)
With the 2nd lot - ie: Willaim RUCK b Halling abt 1843
I think William was married once before he married Mair/Maria and the 13 yr old son WIlliam in the 1881 is HIS by his first wife.
In the 1871 Census, I think William Snr is a 27 yr old Widower, b Halling, boarding at:
RG10 / Piece: 896 / Folio: 90 / Pg 8
And his 3 yr old son William b Chatham abt 1868 - is with his RUCK Grandpaarents in Meopham:
RG10 / Piece: 896 / Folio: 84 / Pg 13
Am I helping or confusing!! 
So - if your Maria BROWN/RUCK/GUEST was previously married to a William RUCK, and was with Fred GUEST in 1891, then it looks to me like the RUCK/BROWN marriage is the Thanet one to take a punt on first. SInce the Sevenoaks marriage Maria may well be the Maria RUCK who is in Meopham 1891 with her children.....
If she was really 34 in 1891, and she was previously married to William Denny RUCK, then she seems to have married much older men both times. If that's her. Of course!!
Drat's that WD's wife is not with him in 1881!
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 2998
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi JAP
We come across the good un's eh
Cheers
AMBLY
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4364
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Hi AMBLY,
You're not wrong.
Brilliant work of yours above.
Armed with that I found WD RUCK in 1871 with wife Maria and sister-in-law Matilda BROWN.
Back to the censuses ...
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4364
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In 1861, WD RUCK is with a previous wife and a heap of children.
RG9/359/6/7
Just for interest - as it doesn't help with Maria.
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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Ruskie
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2888
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Just had a really quick read thorough this (am a bit confused  ). I just wondered if you have checked for the surname spelled as Wruck?
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AMBLY
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2998
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi everyone
Hmm, JAP good find!! that 1871 is interesting though, isn't it..... abviously, The much older WD RUCK was living in a Matrimnoal relationship with his much younger Maria BROWN before they actually got married. I'm not sure I'm ready to discount this Maria as being the one who eventually married Fred GUEST.....even despite the big age difference between the 1871 and the 1891, and the less large place of birth difference.........
1871: 6 Matilda Place - Greenwich Kent
RG10 / Piece: 758 / Folio: 67 / Pg 27
Head: W D RUCK 50, Oil Refiner, b Boro, Surrey
Wife: Maria RUCK 22, b Kent
Suster-in-Law: Matilda BROWN 15, General Servant (Domestic), b Kent
For ref: Maria in the 1891 wife of Fred GUEST
was enumerated as age 34, b London.
I'd really like to find the 1871 Maria and Matilda in 1861, and see if they have a sister or mother named Clara, to match with the witness to the 1882 marriage of Fred Guest to his Maria....
But they aren't being very forthcoming
I never thought of WRUCK, Ruskie -must have a go with that...... though I did consider BUCK......etc
Cheers
AMBLY
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4364
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... that 1871 is interesting though, isn't it..... abviously, The much older WD RUCK was living in a Matrimnoal relationship with his much younger Maria BROWN before they actually got married. I'm not sure I'm ready to discount this Maria as being the one who eventually married Fred GUEST.....even despite the big age difference between the 1871 and the 1891, and the less large place of birth difference.........
Hi AMBLY,
I'm sorry but I'd just assumed (never assume!) that this Maria is the same person as the one who married Frederick W GUEST!
The younger children of the heap of children of WD RUCK from the 1861 census (the whole family listed only by initials!) are appropriately placed in 1871. WJ, 11 in 1861, (presumably Walter James - going by birth entries on FreeBMD) was an Engineer boarding in 1871. HP, 7 in 1861, (presumably FreeBMD's Henry Percy) had died in 1863. GD, 4 in 1861, (presumably FreeBMD's George Denny) was a boarder pupil in a schoolmaster's house in 1871. CM, 3 in 1861, (presumably FreeBMD"s Constance Mary) was a pupil at school. I assumed that WD's wife had died, he took up with Maria BROWN by 1871, and actually married her in 1872.
I then optimistically went looking for Matilda BROWN - surely I could find her in 1861 - but no luck!
Re Clara BROWN - I tried her too but, of course, she might have been a sister-in-law or niece or whatever.
Cheers,
JAP
PS: I wondered earlier whether Frederick William GUEST had left a Will. Now I also wonder whether William Denny RUCK had left a Will ...
PPS: I'm always distrustful of ladies' ages  My own mother was bad enough but her paternal grandmother and great-aunts were quite shameless in reducing their ages by 10 or 20 years.
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
Offline
Posts: 4364
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Just thinking further ...
The next challenge seems to be to find Maria BROWN later RUCK later GUEST in 1861 and 1881. But especially 1861. And in 1861, also her presumed sister Matilda BROWN.
1871 census
Maria is listed with WD RUCK in Kent as his wife (though they didn't marry until the following year). Her age is given as 22 b Kent. With them is WD's sister-in-law Matilda BROWN 15 also b Kent.
1872
Maria BROWN marries William Denny RUCK
1881 census
Maria has not been found.
WD RUCK is living alone though listed as married.
Fred W GUEST is living alone though listed as married.
Dec 1881
William Denny RUCK dies
March 1882
Frederick W GUEST's wife Matilda dies.
April 1882
Maria RUCK marries Frederick W GUEST
1891 census
Maria GUEST, 34, b London, is with Fred W GUEST
Jan 1892
Frederick W GUEST dies
One feels we should be able to find Maria and Matilda in 1861 but ...
In 1881, where Maria is or under what name is anyone's guess.
Similarly in 1901, Maria could be under any name in yet another relationship (formal or not).
JAP
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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AMBLY
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2998
Falkland Islands "Desire The Right"
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Hi JAP
Heck! 10 and 20 years! They must have been good lookers to get away with that
Oops, me sorry - becasue I did think (wrongly assume  ) that you'd didn't 'like' the 1871 Maria....so, glad you do....
Me too, I thought Matilda would be a cinch....I can't spot anything either.
Re: the 1901: I was pondering what Maria GUEST might have done after Fred died Jan 1892 - and looking at the Islington Marriage Sep Qtr 1892 with these 4 on the page - wonder if we can eliminate any of them...
Maria GUEST
Francis PRYOR
Thomas ALLAN
James Richard PAGE
Cheers
AMBLY
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JAP
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 4364
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I'll try to have a look at the 1901 tomorrow.
For what it's worth, a Maria PRYOR d Islington, age 43 Mar qtr 1896.
JAP
PS: I guess there's a difference between good-looking and young-looking! I remember some lads on a building site rudely yelling at me something like "come back when you grow up" - at the time I was a 24yo married mother of a son And that son's Dad, my ex-husband, was asked to show proof he was of the legal drinking age (21) in the US when he was 32 Not to mention that a colleague thought that my younger son was a teenager when he was about 30  Oh dearie, dearie me. If only I NOW looked younger than I am - chance would be a fine thing, eh 
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Scotland - HALL, HARLEY, LOCHTY/LOCHTIE/LOUGHTIE/LOUGHTY (very rare), MCLAUSE/MCLAWS/MCILHOSE/HOSE (quite rare and many very variable spellings - close to 100 to date), PHILP/PHILIP, VASSIE; Ireland - BOURKE/BURKE, DONOHUE (many spellings), DOOLEY, KINSELLA, MAXWELL, OSBORNE, RAFFERTY, STA(U)NTON, SULLIVAN; England - BAYES, BROWNELL, DALTON, FREEMAN, HACKING, PIERCY, SIDDLE, SWIFT, SULLIVAN, TINK(L)ER, TRIPPIT. Any spellings and many other names!
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rjknott
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1366
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If Stephen William Brown exists (and it seems a bit perverse to give him two names if he doesn't) then it could be:
Death
Sep 1867 Kingston
Stephen William Brown age 58
He could be the one who was born in Chatham in 1810.
It would be good to find a marriage to Clara...
Richard
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Knott,Boutell,Warman,Winder,Webster,Uings,Evans,Drage
Pike,Pike,Watson,Pratt,Homewood,Stephenson,Brown,Pattison
Holmes,Tomlinson,Moorby,Cardus,Gill,Lambert,Binns,Emmott
Fenning,Pudney,Wilson,Walker,Hine,Treeby,Knox,Butler
Jack,Carswell,Gardiner,Alexander,Gibb,Watson,Naismith,Telfer
Gray,Inglis,Gibb,Watson,Taylor,Taylor,Gaff,Henderson
Gayford,Clarke,Palmer,Jessup,Smart,Hutson,Lloyd,Northover
Ridley,Lee,?,Mingings,Moore,Colthart,Lawson,Hind
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rjknott
RootsChat Aristocrat
Offline
Posts: 1366
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Something of a longshot, but it might account for Matilda's absence in 1881:
Birth
Dec 1856 Lewisham
Ellen Matilda Brown
Death
Mar 1880 St Olave
Ellen Matilda Brown age 23
So perhaps we should be looking for an Ellen daughter of (Stephen) William in 1861!
Richard
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Knott,Boutell,Warman,Winder,Webster,Uings,Evans,Drage
Pike,Pike,Watson,Pratt,Homewood,Stephenson,Brown,Pattison
Holmes,Tomlinson,Moorby,Cardus,Gill,Lambert,Binns,Emmott
Fenning,Pudney,Wilson,Walker,Hine,Treeby,Knox,Butler
Jack,Carswell,Gardiner,Alexander,Gibb,Watson,Naismith,Telfer
Gray,Inglis,Gibb,Watson,Taylor,Taylor,Gaff,Henderson
Gayford,Clarke,Palmer,Jessup,Smart,Hutson,Lloyd,Northover
Ridley,Lee,?,Mingings,Moore,Colthart,Lawson,Hind
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Aulus
RootsChat Veteran
Offline
Posts: 815
The black sheep: Florence Stevenson née Hampson
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Hello everyone,
Thanks for looking for me and thinking around the problem.
Some interesting results so far, though in a funny way it's comforting that nobody's really been able to get any further with Maria herself. Glad it's not just me!
I couldn't see a Stephen Brown marriage to a Clara on either the IGI or freebmd.
I'm going to blow £14 and get the certificates for the 1872 Thanet Brown-Ruck marriage and the 1892 Islington Maria Guest marriage.
I wish they were Scottish - I just found a few of mine in a different line who were in Scotland for 10-15 years in the second half of the 19th century. The value for money, not to mention ease of access, you get from the Scottish GRO through the scotlandspeople website is brilliant, compared to England & Wales!
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Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens Marylebone & Sussex: Cole London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman Bowland: Marsden, Noble Shropshire: Guest Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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