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Topic: BURKE/KELLY Bury, Lancs. (Read 186 times)
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Chippylewis
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Posts: 6
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am looking for help in finding a marriage certificate for John Burke (born 1844 ireland) and Margaret kelly (born Ireland 1842) or birth certificates for their children. This is so I can try and work out where in Ireland they came from. ( a long shot I know!)
I haven't been able to find anything on Freebdm or Lancashire bdm. I don't know for sure but think they were married in Manchester, I know they met there and according to the 1881 census their first son John (1870) was born there so this would make sense. I am also wondering if Manchester as place of birth in 1870 means right in the centre of Manchester? I know that Mary was born in Saddleworth and then Thomas and Andrew in Shuttleworth, Bury...but I can find nothing! Am I looking in the right places?
I thought if I knew where they were baptised this could help but I have had trouble finding Catholic churches in the area. All I can find on Genuki
opened after the births, don't seem to be any Catholic churches in their area at the times of the births 
Please can someone point me in the right direction, as I am getting pretty desperate!
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emmsthheight
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Posts: 940
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat.
I'm sorry you've been unlucky looking so jar.
Some of the sites aren't as good for RC events because the registers weren't available to be transcribed. RC and many Non Conformist churches just appear as "Register Office or registrar attended on the Lancashire BMD site,
There were loads of RC churches in Manchester at the time. St Mary's Mulberry St (THe Little Gem), St Chad's and others. Some of their records have been filmed and can be seen at Manchester Local Studies Library, Lancashire Record Office Preston and such places.
If you can't go some one on Rootschat might be kind enough to look for you. (Make sure you or someone else checks exactly where thr register you need can be seen. You need to narrow down the Manchester one though. Have you got and address from the census?
Can't see an RC church in Shuttleworth itself, but many of my family were at St Joseph RC Heywood, and there's St Joseph Bury. Good runs of both at Lancashire Record Office. (Finding Folk LRO listing).
Saddleworth's partly Yorkshire - I think -best in my National RC Directory (1965) is Dobcross. You miight be better with Rochdale. I know St Patrick and St John the Baptist were both open. Good runs of both at LRO.
If there's anything else you'd like to know, ask away.
Someone will point you in the right direction.
Best wishes, and again, welcome to Rootschat.
Emms
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Chippylewis
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Posts: 6
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Emms, thanks so much for your help and explaining about RC records. I think things are slowly getting clearer and I will just have to narrow things down by geography.
Unfortunately I can't pinpoint an address in Manchester, the Burkes ( who then would have had one child) seem to be absent from the 1871 census. I have tried searching all counties for them, but to no avail. If they were in Manchester/Lancs, I wonder if that bit of the census was lost? Has anyone else researching Manchester/Lancashire found this? Either this or they went further a field in this year, although I think that unlikely.
I know Mary Burke attended St Joseph's Ramsbottom, so I will carry on and try and find out what church they would have attended prior to this.
I am in Manchester so I will have no problem looking up the records. It's just that I've been confused up to now as to where the right ones would be exactly?!
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Chippylewis
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have now realised on checking the 1881 and 1901 census that they weren't born in Bury. There are discrepancies in birth places for Andrew and Thomas, on 1881 it states they were born in Saddleworth Yorks. and Birstall. Yorks. Then in 1901 it says they were
both born in Oldham Lancs! So their mum forgot where they were born?
I will have to check out records for Oldham, and what used to be Yorkshire. My plot thickens!
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emmsthheight
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Hi and thank you for the reply. It's easier to help if we have more details and sometimes two of you bouincing ideas off each other get to grips with something quicker than one!
If you're in Manchester, you're luck, you've got all thoise in local studies to go at! But if the bith place isn't reliable, how about going back to the BMD indexes again. They're not exact but sometimes putting all the bits you've got together can help.
I'll have a look round and see what else I can see.
Best wishes
Emms.
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emmsthheight
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PS How about listing the details from the censuses you've got on here so that people are cleare r what you've got already?
Emms
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Chippylewis
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OK, this is what I have from the census;
1881, Civil Parish/ township , Walmersley cum shuttleworth
Ecclesiastical Parish, St John's Shuttleworth.
Address, 12 Bye Rd, Shuttleworth.
John Burke aged 37, married , stone quarryman, born Ireland.
Margaret Burke aged 40, married, housekeeper, born Ireland
John Burke aged 11, scholar, born Manchester, Lancashire
Mary Burke aged 7, scholar, Saddleworth Yorkshire
Andrew Burke aged 5, scholar, Saddleworth, Yorkshire
Thomas Burke aged 5, scholar, Birstall, Yorkshire.
1901, Same location/road moved to no. 31 Bye road.
Margaret Burke aged 60, widow, Housekeeper (not domestic), Ireland
Mary Burke aged 27, daughter, Grocers assistant, Lancs, Oldham
Andrew Burke, 25, son, stone quarryman, Lancs Oldham
Thomas Burke, 23, son, stone quarryman, Yorkshire, Batley
Willie Burke, 6, Gson, Lancs, shuttleworth.
Ellen Burke 5, Gdaughter, Lancs, shuttleworth.
Minnie Burke 3, Gdaughter, Lancs, shuttleworth.
At this time I know that John Burke had died, John Burke jnr. had moved to Wigan and was a police constable. The Children listed are Mary Burke's, father unknown as she wasn't married. So I have two possible Birth places for each of Mary, Andrew and Thomas. I had to get a clearer copy of the 1901 census to read Thomas's birthplace and it has changed from Birstall Yorks to Batley, Yorks. I suppose Margaret Burke was getting on in years?!
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emmsthheight
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Hi
That's great, thank you very much.
I'll have another go.
By the way, have you got John Jnr's police service record.
A gggrandfather of mine, was a police officer and I got his record from Lancashire Record Office. He'd also been at Rochdale and Blackburn, so I'm not sure if Wigan was covered by them, but I think there's an online index now. I don't know the cut off date, but it was great to have and really informative.
I'll be in touch.
best wishes
Emms
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sarah
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Hi Chippy 
I don't live far from Bye Road Shuttleworth if you would like a photo.
I think that St Marie, Manchester Road Bury would be the best bet to try first for Catholic Records.
Regards
Sarah
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emmsthheight
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Posts: 940
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
Do you reckon that John and Mary could have had a couple of earlier children who'd died or gone into service by 1881? They're old enough.
That would be why we can't find a marriage at the right time because it would make it earlier too.
There aren't exactly a lot of possibilities in 1871.
I found this though.
Salford, Islington:
RG 10/ 4021
No5 Rowell? Buildings, Regent Rd
John Burke Head 36 Labourer Ireland
Margaret Burke Wife 36 do
Thomas Burke Son 6 Scholar Salford
Mark Burke Son 4 do
John Burke Son 2 do
Mary Daly Lodger 28 Cottton Spinnert Yreland
Main problem, the parents ages are a bit out.
I'll see what I can firnd. If it is them, maybe Sarah can sugget a church.
Emms
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emmsthheight
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Posts: 940
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PS I'll have to wait until tomorrow. Ancestry's images have gone off again.
Best wishes Margaret
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Chippylewis
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Hi Sarah, thanks very much for offering but my parents still live near by and I have already looked at the houses on Bye Lane. I have seen J Burkes gravestone in St Johns over the road, so I don't know if he was catholic or not, apparently he was quite friendly with the vicar there.
Emms I have seen this family in Salford before and wondered. I will ask my mum and see if she could tell me if they had any other children, the ages do seem a bit off though. I will extend the dates in the marriage searches and see if this helps. I will also ask her if Margaret Burke's maiden name was Kelly for sure as I think it's odd I can find no birth/marriage records. I have sent an email about the police record.. just waiting for a response.
Off to bed now and I'll see if I can get anymore info from my mum tomorrow.
Chip.
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Chippylewis
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I spoke to my mum and checked all the details with her, as far as she knows all the names and details are correct and there is no knowledge of any previous children. Apparently there is a diary that gives the exact birth dates of each child so that should give me more to go on.
I have found one possible birth certificate for John Burke jnr. in Manchester, if the birthday fits I could order it. I will just have to get my hands on these birth dates now.
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