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Author Topic: PAYNE/COLEMAN Families  (Read 1859 times)
newbe_nz
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PAYNE/COLEMAN Families
« on: Sunday 18 May 08 22:28 UTC (UK) »
Hi, This is the info I have from the 1851 census that was given to me by another rootschater.

1851 Census

Residing at 48 St Helena Place, Clerkenwell, Middlesex
Ref: HO 107/1517

Edward COLEMAN    Head   Married    Aged 27 Occ Carpenter Born Gilbratar, British Subject
Hannah COLEMAN    Wife    Married    Aged 39 Born Bayton, Suffolk
Charles COLEMAN    Son     Aged  11   Born Bayton, Suffolk
Caroline COLEMAN   Dau    Aged   8     Born Helsall, Suffolk
Isaac COLEMAN        Son    Aged   6     Born Helsall, Suffolk
William COLEMAN     Son    Aged  3       Born  Clerkenwell,  Middlesex
Mary A COLEMAN      Dau    Aged  1      Born  Clerkenwell,  Middlesex
George PAYNE          Son-in-law    Aged 19 Tailor  Born Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk



I understand from my uncle Hannah was  born abt 1810 and Edward was born abt 1820

Hannah was married to a Samuel PAYNE abt 1828. In the 1841 Census the closest one found was Hannah as a widow.

Is there any way to find a Baptisim record for the birth of Edward and Hannah's children.

Edward's father was a John COLEMAN

How does one look for births  etc before 1837 as it would be helpful to have a birth year or baptisim date for Edward and Hannah.

If I am wording this wrong please tell me so that I can correct it.

Thank you

Newbe
« Last Edit: Wednesday 04 June 08 11:15 UTC (UK) by Rick » Logged
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CaroleW
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Barney 1993-2005
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 18 May 08 22:59 UTC (UK) »
Hi

Just for info - Charles Coleman aged 11 on the 1851 census was actually Charles Payne.  The 1841 census shows Hannah with children John 10  George 8  Hannah 6  Charles 2

Hannah is shown as 31 in 1841

Quote
How does one look for births  etc before 1837 as it would be helpful to have a birth year or baptisim date for Edward and Hannah.

As Edward was born in Gibralter - you may find it difficult establishing his birth/baptismal date

To find Hannah's birth details - you would need to first establish her maiden name before she married Samuel Payne

Charles was born post-1837 and in 1841 the family were living in the registration district of Blything.  This may be the birth reg for Charles

Births Jun quarter 1839 
 
Payne  Charles     Blything  Volume 13 Page 390 (GRO image checked)
and a copy of his birth cert will give you Hannah's maiden name
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newbe_nz
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Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 18 May 08 23:18 UTC (UK) »
Hi CaroleW

How would I go about finding Hannah,s maiden name as I live in New Zealand.

Thanks for the info from the 1841 census.

How would I go about finding her marriage record?

I don't have much info to go on.

Looking at the ages of the children fron the 1841 census I am guessing she married abt 1828.

The free BDM site has record from 1837.  How would I find record but then?

Newbe
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CaroleW
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Barney 1993-2005
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 18 May 08 23:22 UTC (UK) »
Hi

I had just posted an amendment to my reply which you may not have seen.  A copy of son Charles birth cert will give Hannah's maiden name.  As a precaution - when you order the cert - put a condition on your application that you only want it if parents were Samuel & Hannah.  If it's the wrong entry - the GRO will only charge you a search fee of £3 GB

www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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CaroleW
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Barney 1993-2005
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 18 May 08 23:35 UTC (UK) »
Hi

Just had another idea that will give you more info than on the birth cert

A copy of the Coleman/Payne marriage cert will give you Hannah's father's name (and therefore her maiden name)

You already have Edward's fathers name

I think this is their marriage ref

Marriages September quarter 1844   

COLEMAN  Edward / PAYNE  Hannah  Wangford  Volume 13 Page 715   

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newbe_nz
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Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 18 May 08 23:45 UTC (UK) »
Hi

I would say that the the marriage ref you found would be the one.

Would the birth cert also give the names of the previous children Hannah has given birth to.

I understand the Australian ones do if you have more than one child.

The New Zealand ones don't so that makes it hard for us.

Newbe
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CaroleW
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Barney 1993-2005
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 18 May 08 23:53 UTC (UK) »
Hi

No - it would only show details of the child whose birth was being registered.  The marriage cert is a better bet as you get her fathers name.  Charles birth cert will only give you the following info

Where & when born
Fathers name and occupation
Mothers name and maiden name

The marriage cert will give you this info

Date and place of marriage
Respective fathers names and occupations (not mothers names)

It will be useful to have the name of Hannah's father when trying to find birth details for her - particularly if she has a surname like Smith or Jones!!
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newbe_nz
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Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #7 on: Monday 19 May 08 00:02 UTC (UK) »
Thanks for that.

I will have to save up some funds and convert it from pounds to NZ dollars.

Thanks so much for your time.

Newbe
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suffolk*sue
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Catherine Sandys, I WILL find out where you went.
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #8 on: Monday 19 May 08 07:26 UTC (UK) »
Don't know if this is the correct marriage from the Suffolk Marriage Index.

Samuel Payne of Cockfield
Hannah Payne of Hengrave

31st July, 1828 - Flempton cum Hengrave



so maybe two cousins marrying.
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newbe_nz
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Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #9 on: Monday 19 May 08 08:24 UTC (UK) »
It could be the one. Even I am not sure. Guess I will have to wait until I cam afford to get the marriage cert for Edward Coleman and Hannah Payne 1844

Does the marriage index give a number for the marriage of Samuel and Hannah?

Newbe
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suffolk*sue
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Catherine Sandys, I WILL find out where you went.
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #10 on: Monday 19 May 08 08:27 UTC (UK) »
This was before civil registration, which started in 1837, so you would have to look in the parish registers to see the actual marriage.
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suffolk*sue
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Catherine Sandys, I WILL find out where you went.
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #11 on: Monday 19 May 08 08:42 UTC (UK) »
Have found the following birth on findmypast, but don't know if hes your one.

Edward Coleman, born 1824, Gibralter, 43rd regt. Vol. 1357, Page 20


I have no idea how you would order a cert for someone born abroad, so maybe someone else has some ideas.
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newbe_nz
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Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #12 on: Monday 19 May 08 08:51 UTC (UK) »
Thanks for that.  It could be the one as the 1851 census say he was born Gilbratar.

Is it possible for someone to look up the Parish record for me as I live in New Zealand.

Quote from: suffolk*sue on Monday 19 May 08 07:26 UTC (UK)
Don't know if this is the correct marriage from the Suffolk Marriage Index.

Samuel Payne of Cockfield
Hannah Payne of Hengrave

31st July, 1828 - Flempton cum Hengrave



so maybe two cousins marrying.

Thanks very much

Newbe
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Rick
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Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #13 on: Monday 19 May 08 13:50 UTC (UK) »
Quote from: newbe on Sunday 18 May 08 22:28 UTC (UK)
Is there any way to find a Baptisim record for the birth of Edward and Hannah's children.


Hi Newbe

Bayton and Helsall are not parishes in Suffolk, but looking at the original 1851 image, it seems to me that Hannah and the Suffolk born children were actually born in Raydon and Kelsale and not Bayton and Helshall.

A volunteer offers lookups from the Raydon Parish Registers at The Suffolk Surname List.

http://www.suffolk-surnames-list.co.uk/

Kelsale parish records are available for view and hire at your nearest LDS Family History Centre in NZ. They are also available for sale at the Suffolk Records Office on microfiche. Clerkenwell PRs are also available from the LDS.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,129613.0.html

http://www.familysearch.org/ENG/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

http://www.familysearch.org/ENG/Library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp

Rick Smiley
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suffolk*sue
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Catherine Sandys, I WILL find out where you went.
Re: Suffolk lookup PAYNE/COLEMAN
« Reply #14 on: Monday 19 May 08 14:16 UTC (UK) »
Quote from: Rick on Monday 19 May 08 13:50 UTC (UK)
Quote from: newbe on Sunday 18 May 08 22:28 UTC (UK)


Hi Newbe

Bayton and Helsall are not parishes in Suffolk,


Rick Smiley






I think Bayton might be Beyton, nr. Bury St. Edmunds. Beyton isn't far from Hengrave and Cockfield.
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