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Topic: Age rounding 1901 census (Read 1234 times)
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blockislandjudith
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thank you all who have responded to my post. I have much to digest and think about.
Answers to Ambly's questions
Yes, Agnes Jane's birth certificate does list Annie Tinsley as mother
No, I don't have marriage Richard and Annie. This is the crux of my problem. I don't know how else to use the index of marriages except to try to match up Richard Jackson and Annie Tinsley in the same town. There are lots of them in the likely years 1895 - 1905 and I can't find a match on the town. Any thoughts on a better search strategy?
To summarize: I feel like I have two Richard Jacksons.
My Canada Richard, who is my grandfather, was born 7/20 1873, Warwickshire. He emmigrated to Canada in 1904. His occupation is Labourer and his wife is Annie Tinsley. He has three children Sarah, Agnes Jane and Samuel. He died 9/15/196 in Pas de Calais France. All of the above is from 1911 Canada census and from Canada military record. I personally know this to be my family from the birth order of the children (Samuel my father) and the town St. Catherines Ontario where they lived.
My [b]Crook, Durham Richard[/b] was born 1866 Tanby, Worcestershire. His wife is Annie. His occupation is labourer water company per 1901 census. He has a daughter Sarah born 1899.
I have found both Sarah and Agnes Jane born in Durham (Agnes Jane in Crook and Sarah unknown town as yet)
So these two Richards appear to be the same person because of the children, but their dates of birth and location of birth are different. If I follow the Warwickshire connection, I find Richard's parents as Richard and Matilda Jackson in 1881, 1891 and 1901 census. This family seems wrong because Richard is still there in 1901
I have not found a good match by following the Worcestershire connection.
I will have a look at the Brooks family mentioned in another post. I do have a personal recollection of my father saying Brooks was a family name. As you can see my family paid little attention to writing things down and I am incredibly grateful for the support you are all providing. My mother's 100th birthday is November this year. I have embarked on this project because it is something she always wanted to do. I hope to have just a simple history done in time for her birthday. (I haven't even started her side of the story!)
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blockislandjudith
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
I am still learning how to use this site. I just wanted you to know that I responded to your last questions, but may have posted it in some general area. Not sure how to respond to specific people. Suggestion?
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meles
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Post it here, so we can all share in each other thoughts.
If you post it elsewhere, it'll be split and we'll get confused (and this is a confusing enough conundrum!)
meles
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Brock: Alburgh, Norfolk, and after 1850, London; Tooley: Norfolk Grimmer: Norfolk; Grimson: Norfolk Harrison: London; Pollock Dixon: Hampshire; Collins: Middx Jeary: Norfolk; Davison: Norfolk Rogers: London; Bartlett: London Drew: Kent; Alden: Hants Gamble: Yorkshire; Huntingford: East London Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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blockislandjudith
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Carolew pointed me to Samuel Brooks with a son Richard Jackson who seems to be a duplicate for Richard Jackson in 1901 census. I looked at this today, and it is interesting, especially because I believe Brooks to be a family name known to my father Samuel, son of Richard.
I think what is most needed is confirmation that Richard's daughter Sarah born 1899 was in fact born Crook, Durham, and hope against hope that she was born in Blades Cottage. That would confirm absolutely that the two Richard Jacksons I am tracking are indeed the same person.
Is there anyone in a position to look up Sarah Jackson's birth certificate in 1899 in Durham and see if there is one with a father Richard Jackson and mother Annie Tinsley? I have found four Sarah Jacksons born that year in the index. I can provide the index numbers if that will make it easier.
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AMBLY
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Hi there
In regard to the question of the marriage mystery of Richard and Annie.....
Can I just ask - have you got the death record of Annie?
Also, have you copies of the death notices/obits of Richard which appeared in the St Catherines Standard (of Lincoln Ontario)? One of them has a photograph apparently.
And, a Mrs Annie JACKSON married 1917, Christ's CHurch, Niagara Falls to an Alfred GAVIN.
I wonder if this is her - because there was an Alfred William GAVIN associated with St Catherine's - he served in WW1 also, and he was born abt 1875.
These 3 items are indexed here:
http://bmd.stcatharines.library.on.ca:1968/
(or you can get to it via the Local Names Index link here:
http://www.stcatharines.library.on.ca/content/genealogy
(and then by clicking on "St Catherine's Index)
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
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Hi
I was just typing this up when I saw you come on, so I threw in the previous question quickly, in case you went off again  This is what I was pondering:
You know you have the right family in Ontario.
You have the correct birth of Agnes Jane in Durham.
As Carole said, the chances of having a Worcestershire man in 'Right' areas of Durham, both of them born Worcestershire and working for the Water Company -seem very slim, and slimmer still when we find one of them has Samuel as a father and BROOKS is a family name which resonates in the facts and anecdotes of your Dad's family.
It definitely looks like a 'double' enumeration to me. ie: Richard is in the household of his father AND in the household of his wife. This did happen from time to time. The instruction was that each house was to return the people who slept in the house on Official Census night. You can perjaps see, therefore how a mistake or a misunderstanding can happen. Did the wife returned that schedule, and fill it in incorrectly? Or did someone fill it in on her behalf and get some of it quite wrong - ie: the ages of the couple, his town of birth and the place of birth of the child, Sarah?
If the Richard found in 1901 with his wife and daughter AND with his parental family is the same man, AND is your man, it would seem he was indeed born Oldbury Worc.
The Place of birth, Tanby, Worc. appears to me to be a mistake, In the whole on 1851-1901, I can find only 1 with that place of birth listed - Richard!
So if this is your Richard, then we see in Canada he has massaged his age down from at least 1911. If he was born in abt 1866, then he was 50 when he died in WW1.
If Annie also massaged her age down....why? I wonder, do you know how they came to be in Canada? Did they come under some kind of Assissted Passage, an Official plan to bring labour into Ontario perhaps. If so, it could be there was an age limit, and they adjusted their age to fall under the age ceiling and then continued the adjustment for the remaineder of their lives.
I think, trying to get information about Annie at your end may help more, if we can find it !
Sarah's marriage certificate definitely said she was born in Birmingham. If she was born to either an unmarried mother, or to a mother married to a first husband, she won't be registered under JACKSON. This could be the case (not registered as JACKSON) even if her biological father is Richard; many's a child born the wrong side of a marriage certificate!
If Annie was really 30 in 1901 (b abt 1871) it is possible - more so than if she were really 22 (born abt 1879) in that Census - that she was married before, and so she married Richard under a previous married name.
If Annie was illigitimate, and her mother was not a TINSLEY, it is possible she married Richard under the name on her birth certificate.
If Annie's stepfaher was a TINSLEY, she may be on some earlier Census as TINSLEY.
Cheers
AMBLY
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blockislandjudith
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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello
Thank you for the St. Catherine's Ontario references. I do know (personally from my father) that Annie Jackson remarried after Richard's death in 1916. I did not know the name of the man she married and have been unsuccessful in finding her death record. I also do not know if she died in Canada or the US. My father and his sisters Sarah (Peggy) and Agnes Jane all emigrated to the US. To the best of my knowledge my father (Samuel) is the only one who became a naturalized US Citizen. I think the rest of them just kept quiet about where they came from. A very strange fact is that my father gave his mother's name as Annie Brooks on his US naturalization papers, despite the fact that his birth record gives her name as Tinsley. Naturally he never spoke about any of this!
Will think more tomorrow. Thank you for all your help.
I have to think more about
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AMBLY
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Hi,
This is all very intriguing, I hope we can help you unravel it all and provide Mum with a very interesting family tree in time for her birthday. How wonderful you are doing this for her.
I do think Annie may be the key - her second marriage, now that we may have the name of her second husband, provides an opportunity to acertain the names of her parents which may in turn unravel the mystery of the marriage!
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
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I think we might be onto something
It does look as if Annie's 2nd husband was indeed, Alfred William GAVIN.
Agnes Jane JACKSON married Leo J MAY in 1918 as previously mentioned.
I see they are in Providence, Rhode Island in 1920 and in Cranston, Providence, Rhode Island in 1930.
In 1924 there is a travel record - Border crossing Ontario to Buffalo NY:
Alfred Wm GAVIN , age 49, married, labourer, b Lanark, Ontario, Canada.
He was travelling from Thessalon, Ontario where he last resided, and his contact there was his sister Mrs Angus Taylor. He was heading for: Providence Rhode Island, and his wife there, Annie, of 33 ----- and St (can't quite make out the street name)
Cheers
AMBLY
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AMBLY
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Just found this:
Rhode Island Death Index:
Anna M GAVIN died 14 Dec 1928 age 57
Relation: wf
Relative 1: Alfred Gavin
Relative 2: Jane Gavigan
The "Anna M" could be a mis-read of "Annie"? Or could it be her real name, and Annie is what she was always known as....?
And even better: this which undeniably, is your Annie!
Border Crossing from Ontario Canada to Niagara Falls, New York - 8 Dec Feb 1926
Annie GAVIN age 55, married, housewife, born Shropshire England.
Travelling alone to visit her daughter, Agnes MAY of RI. Her husband Alfred remains in "Thesslan", Ontario.
This strenghens the probability that the little family in Blades Cottage - Village of Wheatbottom in 1901 is yours and now we have 3 seperate records where it indicates Annie was born possibly abt 1871 Shropshire:
1901 Census UK (probably)
1926 Border crossing to US (certainley)
1828 Death Index (possibly)
Cheers
AMBLY
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« Last Edit: Monday 09 June 08 02:02 BST (UK) by AMBLY »
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Nick29
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My dad in his LFB uniform
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Many people 'fiddled' deliberately with their ages, vanity, woman's perogative , decorum (if one spouse was much older or younger than the other) - how far out are the ages of the people you've found?
I have a few people in my tree who have lost a few years of age at every census 
.... and they weren't all women, either ! I think the 1800's saw a fair bit of vanity (or forgetfulness ?) from both sexes.
Then, of course, when they passed away, it was the relatives who gave the coroner a vague estimation of the late person's age.
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Field - Luton & Islington Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp, Church - Suffolk Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London) Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent) & Maidstone Wood - Hertfordshire Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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AMBLY
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Going back to the BROOKS/JACKSON .......it appears even more complicated - but I think a quite probable line is this:
Birth - Worcestershire
Sep Qtr 1866
Richard JACKSON - W. Bromwich - 6b 626
1871: Hobicus Lane - Oldbury Worcestershire
Head: George TURNER 24, Coal Miner, b Wednesbury Staffordshire
Wife: Sarah TURNER 27, b Dudley, Worc.
Son: Richard JACKSON 5, b Oldbury Worc.
RG10 / Piece: 2977 / Folio: 76 / Pg 10
RD Covering is West Bromwich
If this Census is the right Richard, then it seems his mother married George TURNER in the period 1866 to 1871?
But I can't find a marriage?
There is a death:
George TURNER age 26 - West Bromwich - Jun Qtr 1873 - 6b 404
1881: 12 Park St - Hamlet of Oldbury, Worcestershire
Head: Samuel BROOKS 28, Coal Miner, b Oldbury
Wife: Sarah BROOKS 34, b Oldbury
Son: Richard JACKSON 14, Labourer, b Oldbury
Boarder: George HEAGRET? 14, Labourer, b Oldbury
Boarder: Richard JACKSON 36, unm, Coal Miner, b Staffords.
RG11 / Piece: 2840 / Folio: 75 / Pg 40 & 41
RD Covering is West Bromwich
It's looking increasingly like, Sarah was a born JACKSON and the older Richard JACKSON could be her brother? Samuel BROOKS 28, is too young, surely, to be the biological father of Richard JACKSON age 14.
Can't find a marriage for Samuel and Sarah either 
Then on to the Census CaroleW found, repeated here for comparison:
1891: 32 Grahamsley - Town of Crook, Crook & Billy, Durham
1891: 32 Grahamsley - Town of Crook, Crook & Billy, Durham
Head: Samuel BROOKS, 40 coalminer, b Olberry Worcs
Wife: Sarah 47, b Olberry Worcs
Son: Edward Brooks 5 , b Crook (must be the Edward Turnfield shown in 1901)
Boarder: Richard JACKSON, 50, Coal Miner, b Olberry (doesn't give his marital status)
Boarder: Sarah Jackson 7, Scholar, b Olberry
RG12 / Piece: 4076 / Folio 99 / pg 50
RD covering is Auckland
1901 Grahamsley Row - Hamlet of Grahamsley, Crook & Billy, Durham
(Ecclesiastic Parish of Crook St Catherine's)
Head: Samuel BROOKS 51, Coal Miner Hewer b Oldbury Worcester
Wife: Sarah BROOKS 57, b Oldbury Worcester
Son: Richard Jackson 35 labourer for water co, b Oldbury Worcester
Edward Turnfield 16 adopted boy
Fred Robinson 17 adopted boy
William Robinson 15 adopted boy
RG13 / Piece: 4653 / Folio: 144 / pg 26
RD Covering is Auckland
In this 1901 - I think Samuel's age is 51, not 57. His age looks different that the 57 written for Sarah. What appears to be the top of a 7 in his age, is in fact the top of the 5.
Can't find "our" Richard in 1891........
Cheers
AMBLY
PX: Nick The older Richard JACKSON appearing to age from 36 to 50 between 1881 and 1891 might be one of them blokes
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JDGen
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From UKBMD site:
George TURNER m Sarah JACKSON 1870 Smethwick St Paul
I wonder if anyone has access to the Parish Registers....
Jean
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukCHS: Barber(Tabley) Barlow(Antrobus) Blackshaw(Lymm, Mobberley) Blease/Done/Moore(G Bud) Owen(Netherton, Tabley) Spragg/Witter(Goostrey) Youd(Frodsham) Pennell Bankes Birchall Beckett DBY: Higginbottom(Mellor) HRT: Gurney HRT/BED/ESS: Verney (Markyate St) LAN: Davenport(Bolton) Schofield/Gurney(Oldham) Lord(Heap) Quinn(Manchester) Sutcliffe(Rossendale) NTH: Tubb/Johnson(Hellidon)Brown(Kettering) YKS: Scott(Clapham) |
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JDGen
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And the folllowing:
Samuel BROOKES m Sarah TURNER 1880 Smethwick St Paul
Jean
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Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.ukCHS: Barber(Tabley) Barlow(Antrobus) Blackshaw(Lymm, Mobberley) Blease/Done/Moore(G Bud) Owen(Netherton, Tabley) Spragg/Witter(Goostrey) Youd(Frodsham) Pennell Bankes Birchall Beckett DBY: Higginbottom(Mellor) HRT: Gurney HRT/BED/ESS: Verney (Markyate St) LAN: Davenport(Bolton) Schofield/Gurney(Oldham) Lord(Heap) Quinn(Manchester) Sutcliffe(Rossendale) NTH: Tubb/Johnson(Hellidon)Brown(Kettering) YKS: Scott(Clapham) |
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