Welcome, Guest. Please login or register for free.
Did you miss your activation email?
Monday 30 November 09 16:47 UTC (UK)
Welcome Home Help Surnames Library Shop Search Login Register

+  RootsChat.Com
|-+  England (Counties as in 1851-1901)
| |-+  England - General
| | |-+  Surrey (Moderators: dawnsh, Valda)
| | | |-+  Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth  (Read 1006 times)
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« on: Friday 13 June 08 12:29 UTC (UK) »
Hi there

Zachariah (or Zackariah) Ireland is listed as the deceased father on John Ireland's (and Mary Jane Quigley's) marriage certificate in 1880, in Walworth St John's.

There is a possible death in Wandsworth 1861, but I can't find any birth or marriage records.  There are some possibles in 41/51/61 census.  I think it likely that mistranscriptions have occured every step of the way here.  Very difficult with no info to go on.  So before I launch into soul-destroying checking:

Anyone miraculously have info on/interest in this man?

Cheers
J
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
Jane Masri
RootsChat Marquessate
********
Posts: 3869


My back garden


WWW
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #1 on: Friday 13 June 08 16:31 UTC (UK) »
Hi Jojo, what is the age given for John on his marriage certificate? From this we might be able to track him & his parents on the census  Wink

jane
Logged
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 14 June 08 06:24 UTC (UK) »
Hi Jane

Unfortunately it just says 'full age' on the certificate.
In 1881, he's 30.
In 1891, 40.
In 1901, 46.

I was searching the census for Johns with father Zac*, but it didn't turn anything up.  A fresh pair of eyes would be most welcome! 

J : )
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 14 June 08 06:39 UTC (UK) »
Or rather I should say John with father Zac* did turn records up but nothing that was obviously the IRELANDS.  Wink
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
Jane Masri
RootsChat Marquessate
********
Posts: 3869


My back garden


WWW
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 14 June 08 07:41 UTC (UK) »
Jojo, which one is he on the 1881 census?  I'd like to see where he says he was born,

jane
Logged
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 14 June 08 09:38 UTC (UK) »
Hi Jane

Just to confuse things, he is enumerated as John Stanley on 1881 and 1891 and then Ireland again in 1901.  This is definitely an error as I have Ireland births at those addresses.  This is cutting a very long story short - it took me years to confirm it was the right family!

1881 RG11 Piece 549 Folio 32 Page 58
1891 RG12 Piece 362 Folio 86 Page 62
1901 RG13 Piece 512 Folio 62 Page 47

I have always felt that his Whitechapel in 1881 was a red herring, but I'm finding it hard to remember why.

I was so pleased when I got the certificate and saw Zachariah Ireland - I thought he'd be easy to find. How wrong I was!

Thanks
J
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
********
Posts: 9415
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 14 June 08 14:13 UTC (UK) »
birthplace in 1891/1901 is Newington

1901
John Ireland age 46
wife Mary
children Olive 21
John 20
Martha 15
Albert 13
Ethel 6

1891
John Stanley 40
wife Mary
children Olive 12
John 10
Emily 8
Martha 5
Albert 3
Christopher 6mths
Logged
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Jane Masri
RootsChat Marquessate
********
Posts: 3869


My back garden


WWW
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 14 June 08 14:34 UTC (UK) »
Well, it certainly looks like the same family in the 1881, 1891 & 1901 censuses, but why would he call himself 'Stanley' in 1881 & 1891, then Ireland in 1901 but married in the name of Ireland in 1880  Roll Eyes  I think there's some deception going on  Shocked

I've been up & down the 1851, 1861 & 1871 censuses looking for John Stanley or John Ireland with no luck.  All I found was a very weird entry in 1861 at St. Peter, Walworth (RG9/339/47/1) a male by the name of Ireland (there could be a letter in front of the name) age 40, traveller absent, marital status unknown, place of birth unknown  Undecided a weird entry as someone has obviously guessed at the information (probably a lodging house) but why give the information if he didn't sleep in the house on census night & he's going to be duplicated somewhere else.  I thought as John was a hawker in 1891 this traveller might be significant.

It's a possibility that John was illegitimate & the father's name has been made up to save face.  Did it mention a proffession for his deceased father on his marriage cert?  I also had a look on the 1851 census for a Zachariah (all spellings) Ireland or Stanley & there were only 3.  Two of them too young & a Zacharias Ireland born 1801, Dutton, Cheshire & living in the same place.

This one's a hard nut to crack  Undecided

jane
Logged
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 14 June 08 20:17 UTC (UK) »
Thanks for looking Jane.

I came up with the same as you - I saw the absent traveller in 1861 - very odd.

There was no occupation for the deceased father.

The only other thing I came up with was an Ireland family in Bermondsey with a John Ireland around the right age, father John Ireland but in later census returns the John Ireland Snr is listed as imbecile, feeble minded, etc. I wondered if John the younger was embarrassed and tried to distance himself. 

Yet there is that Zachariah Ireland death in Wandsworth which implies he should exist somewhere! 

Ah well it's reassuring to know that it's not me missing the obvious - thanks once again.

J  Smiley
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
Jane Masri
RootsChat Marquessate
********
Posts: 3869


My back garden


WWW
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 15 June 08 08:31 UTC (UK) »
I saw the death for Zachariah (was it Q3 1861?) Wandsworth.  By rights he should appear on the 1861 census, but I couldn't find him  Sad  Do you have any theories about the Stanley/Ireland name change?

jane
Logged
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 15 June 08 19:56 UTC (UK) »
I wondered whether it was just a misunderstanding between the enumerator and John Ireland e.g. 'State your full name' 'John Stanley', thinking they meant his full first names.

Or wilful deception, as you say.  The addresses are all very black in Charles Booth's London maps and considered 'semi-criminal'.  Who knows what he might have been trying to cover up?  I think we'll probably never know...

It doesn't bode well for Zachariah though, if all this name-changing is an inherited trait  Roll Eyes

J  Smiley
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
Jane Masri
RootsChat Marquessate
********
Posts: 3869


My back garden


WWW
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #11 on: Monday 16 June 08 13:35 UTC (UK) »
I don't think it's an error or misunderstanding on the census, why would that happen twice with 10 years in between.  If he could write he would have filled-in the form himself as I think they were given to each household well in advance of census night.
Talking of criminals, have you tried Old Bailey Online?  You can search by surname & who knows what might turn up  Shocked

jane
Logged
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Researching BRABY/BRAVERY in SURREY and SUSSEX

PLEASE use the look-up requests page not a personal message.
lizdb
RootsChat Marquessate
********
Posts: 9415
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #12 on: Monday 16 June 08 16:27 UTC (UK) »
In 1871 there is a 21 yr old John Stanley, born Newington (wrongly indexed as Weddington) at the Woolwich Arsenal Barracks
RG10 786 92 17

Could this be him?
Logged
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 17 June 08 09:24 UTC (UK) »
Good spot, Liz.  It could well be him.  He's going into my rapidly expanding file of 'possibles'!

I did try Old Bailey online, Jane.  There is a John Ireland trial in May 1871 (again could be a possible, but nothing really to go on) - otherwise most of the hits are for John Ireland the policeman as a witness! 

I'm truly perplexed.  I am going to order the 1861 Zachariah Ireland death cert and hope against hope it gives me some clue.  Will post the findings!

Many thanks
J
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
Jojo
RootsChat Member
***
Posts: 119
Re: Zachariah IRELAND, Walworth/Wandsworth
« Reply #14 on: Monday 23 June 08 10:18 UTC (UK) »
Well, here is the update.

Zachariah Ireland died 16 September 1861 in Union Workhouse, Battersea.  Age 40 yrs, Labourer.  Cause of death: phthisis pulmonalis.  Informant Wm Langley, who I assume was workhouse staff (haven't checked yet).

So that's not much help.
Plan from here is to check the workhouse in 1861 census to see if there are any mistranscribed candidates.  I suspect that he might have been well enough to be working 5/6 months before his death and could have only gone into the workhouse once he was too ill to work.

I still think he could be John's father, but am now wondering if John was illegitimate and his mother's surname was Stanley - it seems a possible explanation for all the name swapping.

Cheers, J
Logged
COOLE and SCRIVEN Cirencester
IRELAND Battersea, Camberwell
LEBRUN, HAMBLEN, HUGHES, DU FEU Channel Islands
GREENAN/GRENNAN Roscommon Ireland
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »


[Copyright] [Shrink Link] [About Us] [Terms of Use]
All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only
RootsChat.com cannot be held responsible directly or indirectly for the messages or content posted by others. Inline images in messages are the copyright of the respective linked sites.
RootsChat.com, Europa House, Bury, Lancashire, BL9 5BT

In loving memory of Eric George Davies, 1934-2009, the father of RootsChat.com































Powered by SMF 1.0.7 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
0.047:21