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Topic: Traveller musicians (Read 2781 times)
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kdc650
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Thanks to everyone who has responded to my plea. I apologise for not having replied sooner. Various distractions, including family deaths and serious illnesses, and not the least of which was a small stroke I had last year. But I will now slowly work my way through all these interesting replies, hoping I remain in good standing. As ever, I am always willing to share my own material with all who ask.
More soon,
Keith C
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Sorry to hear you not been well Keith. Get well soon hunny x
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kdc650
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Once again, many thanks to all who have responded so far with further information and well wishes. I will now try and answer all the backlogged questions. I need to add now that in addition to the volume on specifically Romany or pas rat musicians, all others born in England or Wales found so far who don't fit into that category have gone into a separate database, which I intend to make available via the Village Music Project website. Musicians born outside of England and Wales were legion during the 19th century (especially Germans working in travelling bands), but fall outside of my current research.
In one sense practically all musicians active before 1900 were travellers, in that they 'travelled' to the performance venues, even when these were close to home. That said, many non-Romany/pas rat players were often on the road far from home. I hope that by creating chronologies for each, which will include all material discovered - biographical (from the usual genealogical sources and even the oral tradition where available), newspaper and manuscript sources, and so on - to be able to show the variety of performance activity. At the very least, establishing dates of birth and death will at least indicate the timeframe each musician could have been active. From this preamble I hope it has become obvious that I have an interest in everyone named as musician born before 1900. Some will (and have) eventually proven to be of a higher social standing than the grass roots players which interest me most, but there are no hard and fast rules. I'm thinking of the source which tells of the twelve men employed to attend upon services twice a day in Salisbury Cathedral during the mid-19th century. Because of insufficient wages, they were forced to find work outside of that regular job : one played fiddle in dancing booths, another played and sang in glee clubs. Even those who played in church bands across Britain would often double as suppliers of music to country dancing (Thomas Hardy's work, of course, but there is much other evidence).
Thanks for staying with me so far. On then to specific responses.
Steve (Reply #2) - I'm certainly interested in details of your 'Wild West Show' ancestor. Travelling shows of all kinds usually had some form of music attached, even if it was just the proprietor blowing a horn and banging a gong. Most larger shows hired small bands of musicians for the season, sometimes family members.
Burto (#3) - Your Swifts sound very interesting. Please tell us more. Once I can outline their life history we might be able to tell if there is a specific Romany connection.
Paulene (#7) - Many thanks for those musicians listed, some of which were now to me. Please tell me of any more that cross your path. Eventually I hope to create biographies for all players.
Lollyross (#8) - Very interesting to hear of your travelling harp-playing ancestor, and would love to learn his name. The harp turns out to have been much more common an instrument used in bands which played for country dancing, even among Romanies, than we first thought. And these were often full sized harps. Goodness knows how some of them overcame the problem of carrying the thing around. In addition to playing in combination with fiddles, trumpets, and so on, I have one early reference to a harpist as sole musician to a set of country dancers.
Pollyb (#9) - I will contact you via a personal message, as Elias Draper and Walter Gage are of especial significance to my Romany book.
Gary (#12) - Again, I will contact you personally, as I can send both you and Pollyb the grids I have already created for your direct ancestors in a form not reproduceable here. But the Hodgkiss family from Wolverhampton are also of great interest.
Neil (#14) - I only have John Flexney gridded so far, though I find his brothers Richard and Frederick as musicians in various censuses and they are high on my 'to do' list. John's birth was registered in Witney, OXF (three miles from where I live) in 1840; trail ends at the 1881 census. I would love to learn what happened to him. Are the two men named Edward on your list related to the other men? Interesting also to hear of your grandmother's musical accomplishments. Was she a violin player? Any idea what instruments the earlier musicians would have played?
Once again, I apologise to all for the delay in replying. Now that I am 'on the mend' I will be sure to monitor this list more often. I hope others will continue to share their finds, family stories, etc. And, once again, I am always willing to share anything I have. You just have to ask.
My very best wishes to all.
Keith
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Old Bristolian
RootsChat Veteran
Posts: 558
Ada & Joan
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Hi Keith,
Glad to hear you're back on the case!
I'll reply more fully to you in a PM later this week re the Flexney family - my ancestor (John) & Neils (#14) were brothers - they can be found in 1851 Census travelleing together as musicians. Edward, the eldest brother played the trumpet I think - he moved to Lancashire & taught (I think) at the RNCM. His son, Edward was a violinist with the Halle.
I've no idea what John played - as far as I know none of his descendants were very musical - he was with the "Wild West Show" in Wiltshire in 1891 & then disappears
Best wishes
Steve
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Bumstead - London, Suffolk
Flexney, Godfrey - Oxfordshire
Street, Cave - Gloucestershire
Gibbs, Gait, Noyes, Peters, Padfield, Board, York, Rogers, Emery, Clavey - Somerset
Fook, Snell - Devon
M(a)cDonald, Yuell, Gollan, McKenzie - Rosshire
McLennan, Mackintosh - Inverness
Williams, Jones - Angelsey & Caernarvon
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tiggi
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 474
BETSEY SMITH/ WIFE OF NELSON BUCKLAND
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I found this thought might interest you kdc650 :
Quote :
Tommy Lewis was a gypsy fiddle player who often, at least in later life, camped at nearby Standlake; as is often the case with travellers, I have been unable to trace any details of his birth or death. He is, however, also recorded as playing for the Abingdon (Berkshire) Morris Dancers, just prior to the First World War. Edward 'Deedlum' Butler, so nicknamed for his habit of 'diddling' the tune while playing (as did William Wells at a later date), was born in Burford about 1813, and later lived at Asthall, where his son Richard was born in 1854. The older Butler had a dancing booth which he used to take round and erect at fairs as far away as Blackwell in Warwickshire. There was no charge for admission but a man paid a small sum (perhaps a penny) for each dance in which he and a partner joined.
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/bampton.htm
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TENETT BUCKLAND & PLATO BUCKLAND ( MY LINEAGE)
Buckland Smith James Stanley Lovell Loveridge Lee Cooper Penfold/Pinfold Orchard Boswell Broadway Wells
AREAS OF INTEREST CORNWALL DEVON USA
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kdc650
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Thanks for that Tiggi. I wrote that article, but please continue to draw my attention to anything that looks interesting.
Keith (Chandler)
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kdc650
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Glad you found the article interesting, Tiggi. I wrote it in 1992. Seventeen years on I know so much about Tommy Lewis that he forms a separate chapter in my forthcoming book!
My very best wishes,
Keith
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Branston21
RootsChat Pioneer
Posts: 1
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
I'm related to Horatio Lamprey Lovell and his son William Horatio Lovell who was also a musician (harp). I don't have any personal stories to pass on, but I do have certificates & census returns which state that they were musicians.
I would be happy to pass on the information via private message . Please let me know what you require and of course if you have any info to share.
Best wishes
S
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kdc650
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Thanks to S and Gaille for the responses. Look forward to details of the musicians in Bollington.
Keith
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devonblue
RootsChat Member
Posts: 155
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi,
Found this one only today:
James Bishop, Retired Musician, Father in Law. Aged 77 born Trowbridge Wilts.
He was in a Caravan in St Andrews Plymouth in 1871 RG10/2120/108/51
Sorry I can't read the name of the family he was living with.
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Midlands:Bayliss, Clemo, Eburn, Evans, Finney, Mayo, Morris, Rhead, Shutt, Upton, Waterhouse, Woodward, Wright, Woolley, Wyatt,
Devon: Gillard, Jenkins, Manfield, Morrish, Palk, Salter, Shire, Scorse, Summers, Wood,
Dorset: Fudge, Roberts,Trowbridge,
Montgomeryshire: Evans
Norfolk: Bond, Everard, Riches,
Somerset:Clothier, Hockey, Jenkins, Shire
Ireland:Mihill, Woodward, Zumach
Scotland:Lewis
Travellers:Cooper, Davies, Hughes, Manley, Orchard, Penfold, Roberts, Small, Wells/Wills
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kdc650
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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A very nice find, and many thanks for bringing it to my attention. There are a bunch of interesting familes living in the vicinity, and I'm wondering if it was the occasion of a fair. In tracing him backwards I couldn't find him in 1841, but hit upon a fascinating location, namely the Middlesex Pauper Lunatic Asylum at Hayes, which included one street musician and a number of hawkers.
My best to all,
Keith
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devonblue
RootsChat Member
Posts: 155
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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And another one:
James Carr aged 22 Visitor, musician. Living in a caravan in Pruhoe, Northumberland. He was born in Yorkshire.
RG10/5143/66/48
Hope he is as interesting as the last one I found (beginners luck!)
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Midlands:Bayliss, Clemo, Eburn, Evans, Finney, Mayo, Morris, Rhead, Shutt, Upton, Waterhouse, Woodward, Wright, Woolley, Wyatt,
Devon: Gillard, Jenkins, Manfield, Morrish, Palk, Salter, Shire, Scorse, Summers, Wood,
Dorset: Fudge, Roberts,Trowbridge,
Montgomeryshire: Evans
Norfolk: Bond, Everard, Riches,
Somerset:Clothier, Hockey, Jenkins, Shire
Ireland:Mihill, Woodward, Zumach
Scotland:Lewis
Travellers:Cooper, Davies, Hughes, Manley, Orchard, Penfold, Roberts, Small, Wells/Wills
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