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Topic: Will digital printing survive? (Read 735 times)
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king william
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 296
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am wondering if anyone can tell me how long my history which has been printed by a computer and printer survive?
I have some old history notes from my father which were typed on an old manual typewriter and they are still very legible. A typewriter like that made the letters by printing them with a small amount of force which made an imprint. There was a tiny depth to the letters.
A computer and printer does not have that same etching- quality, it is all very much on the surface.
As I am doing all this history for my grandchildren who are only aged two to eleven, will all my hard graft still be legible in 50 years time or will it have faded away.
I do it as pages in a scrapbooking album which is acid-free and lignin-free, but can anyone tell me if the printing from my Canon printer survive.
If not, can anyone point me to someone who can - otherwise all my years of work will disappear.
Robin
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Wiltshire, Somerset, Gloucestershire - Bush, Strange, Whittington, Gunning, Doddington, Browning, Maltravers, Foliot, Rodborough, Balle
Shropshire - le Strange
Wales - Deulwyn, Dalwyn, Rede, Wirriott,
East Sussex - Catt, Ashdown, Barham, Henley, Lawrence, Hepden, Elliott, Phillips
London - Bush, King
Suffolk - Sewell, Knight, Baxter, Martin
Norfolk - Sewell, Larter, Howlett, Bacon:
Tasmania, Australia - Bossward
Worcestershire - Lloyd, Beach, Shepherd, Hemming
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stonechat
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 1082
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Hi
You did not say what type of printer your Canon was.
If it is ink jet, it may not be that long, a laser printer with toner, I would have thought would last quite well
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Douglas, Varnden, Joy(i)ce Surrey, Clarke Northants/Hunts, Pullen Worcs/Herefords, Holmes Birmingham/USA/Canada/Australia, Jackson Cheshire/Yorkshire, Lomas Cheshire, Lee Yorkshire, Cocks Lancashire, Leah Cheshire, Cook Yorkshire, Catlow Lancashire
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king william
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 296
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for your reply,
My current printer is a Canon S200sPx but it has all but died, I will be looking for a new one, can you advise me on one that will have lasting qualities in its printing, - not too expensive as we are close to retirement age, and the pennies/dollars begin to count.
I am in New Zealand
Robin
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Wiltshire, Somerset, Gloucestershire - Bush, Strange, Whittington, Gunning, Doddington, Browning, Maltravers, Foliot, Rodborough, Balle
Shropshire - le Strange
Wales - Deulwyn, Dalwyn, Rede, Wirriott,
East Sussex - Catt, Ashdown, Barham, Henley, Lawrence, Hepden, Elliott, Phillips
London - Bush, King
Suffolk - Sewell, Knight, Baxter, Martin
Norfolk - Sewell, Larter, Howlett, Bacon:
Tasmania, Australia - Bossward
Worcestershire - Lloyd, Beach, Shepherd, Hemming
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mike175
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 588
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Print longevity is a real minefield. I've had inkjet prints fade almost to nothing after barely a year, using cheap paper (or even good paper of the wrong make). It seems important to use the paper and ink recommended by your printer manufacturer if you want it to be around for your grandchildren. Some of the better ones are supposed to last over 100 years.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ has numerous reports on the subject.
Mike.
PS. It's all to do with the coating on the paper, which reacts chemically with the ink to fix it . . . apparently
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Baskervill - Devon, Foss - Hants, Gentry - Essex, Metherell - Devon, Partridge - Essex/London, Press - Norfolk/London, Stone - Surrey/Sussex, Stuttle - Essex, Wheate - Middlesex/Essex/Coventry/Rutland/Oxfordshire/Staffs, Gibson - Essex
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0rinoco
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 91
ggg Uncle John
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It's much cheaper to have photographs printed on line. You get quality prints which will last and usually look at least as good and often much better than those run off on your printer. Coloured ink, at about £600 per gallon, makes petrol look quite cheap.
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Nick29
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 567
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks for your reply,
My current printer is a Canon S200sPx but it has all but died, I will be looking for a new one, can you advise me on one that will have lasting qualities in its printing, - not too expensive as we are close to retirement age, and the pennies/dollars begin to count.
I am in New Zealand
Robin
If you just want it mainly for documents, may I suggest a cheap mono laser printer ? Something like the Samsung ML-2010R which you can get in the UK for about £40.
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Field - Luton & Islington
Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey
Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp - Suffolk
Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London)
Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire
Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent)
Wood - Hertfordshire
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king william
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 296
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thank you for all your replies - I do want it just for documents as it is the history I am recording and the stories about my ancestors. I gather from reading this that many people are considering the implications of this.
I do have a page I printed a very few years ago which is losing its ink.
I am wondering just which component it is that creates the permanence as a new book does not lose its legibility. I see that Mike175 says the coating on the paper makes a difference - I use photo-safe paper as I usually have a few photos on the page as well - they are not printed on my printer.
Now, does anyone know of any particular paper that will keep photos safe and have long-lasting ink.
Being in New Zealand could make a difference, also I like paper that is not white - too cold and clinical for the history pages, I usually use a cream or beige paper that is made for scrapbooking. It has a warmth to it.
I could not get the PDF reports on the wilhelm-research to download for some reason - were there any pearls of wisdom that could help me. I need all the pearls I can get.
Robin
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Wiltshire, Somerset, Gloucestershire - Bush, Strange, Whittington, Gunning, Doddington, Browning, Maltravers, Foliot, Rodborough, Balle
Shropshire - le Strange
Wales - Deulwyn, Dalwyn, Rede, Wirriott,
East Sussex - Catt, Ashdown, Barham, Henley, Lawrence, Hepden, Elliott, Phillips
London - Bush, King
Suffolk - Sewell, Knight, Baxter, Martin
Norfolk - Sewell, Larter, Howlett, Bacon:
Tasmania, Australia - Bossward
Worcestershire - Lloyd, Beach, Shepherd, Hemming
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kyt
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 273
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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With photojet printers think of the output as a painting, and consider the rules applicable to them:
- depth of paint - the thicker the paint, the longer the colour lasts. With a printer set it to best quality so it lays down more ink
- as mentioned, quality of paper. That will be recommended in the instructions you receive
- original ink - third part and/or cheap cartridges are a false economy
- sunlight - it fades ink just like it does paints
- minimal handling. Print a seperate master copy. Sweat and touching affects paper and ink
- different colours fade at different rates
K
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king william
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 296
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Kyt - thank you for your reply - I am still confused by "inkjet" and "mono-laser" - Nick 29 suggested the latter, and I will take note of what you say about the cheap ink.
What I do is to print out the page with the history on an A4 scrapbooking paper, then put on the embellishments (usually photos) and keep them in a 12 x 12 photo album,
your idea of a separate master copy is a great one. Maybe even a handwritten (will Biro be permanent) basic line of descent.
Now I just have to find out if scrapbooking paper which is acid-free and lignin-free is suitable for inkjet or mono laser printers.
This was just a sudden horrible thought I had yesterday when I noticed that one of my printed pages was losing its ink - I have worked hard for years on my family history and I cannot bear the thought that it may fade into nothing.
Books don't fade away so obviously I need to follow the same principles.
Any more thoughts very gratefully received,
Robin
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Wiltshire, Somerset, Gloucestershire - Bush, Strange, Whittington, Gunning, Doddington, Browning, Maltravers, Foliot, Rodborough, Balle
Shropshire - le Strange
Wales - Deulwyn, Dalwyn, Rede, Wirriott,
East Sussex - Catt, Ashdown, Barham, Henley, Lawrence, Hepden, Elliott, Phillips
London - Bush, King
Suffolk - Sewell, Knight, Baxter, Martin
Norfolk - Sewell, Larter, Howlett, Bacon:
Tasmania, Australia - Bossward
Worcestershire - Lloyd, Beach, Shepherd, Hemming
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Barry1936
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 27
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
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Why do you want to save hard copy? Why not save your files on CD/DVD? Your grandchildren and their grandchildren may well find themselves more at home with digital records! Current thinking is 25 years minimum for CD and could well be a lot longer but we do not know yet. The advantage of a CD is that it can be copied in the future before it is 'time expired' with no loss of quality. That way it can be stored indefinitely and even be transferred into new digital media as it is developed, thus avoiding technological obsolescence. All you need to ensure is that the file format is 'open source' so that the files can always be read (or re-mastered).
If you are really keen on hard copy you may be interested to know that the 'master' copy of all UK Acts of Parliament are still printed on goatskin parchment!! Unbelievable but true. More constructively, can I suggest that you consult an archivist at one of the NZ national museums or libraries who must already be wrestling with the problem of preserving modern day records and might be able to advise you on the best paper and printing technology.
barry1936
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Hepburn - Clerkenwell, Islington, Limehouse, Grays
Cowell - Stanford le Hope, Erith, Orsett, Grays
Powell - Sheppey Kent, New Zealand
Williams - Llanferres, Clwyd
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king william
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 296
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Barry
What a great idea - I will contact a national library and ask them for help.
Your idea for a digital storage is also a good one.
I actually do scrapbooking which is doing up a photo album for each child and grandchild, it is a creative hobby with a hands-on and very loving approach for each child, it is something they pick up and look through whenever they visit, and that is how I have been dong the history.
I know there is a digital way of scrapbooking but I just love to visit the scrapbooking stores and buy the products, it is also tactile as they can see a programme for a show they have been to - or in - or a newspaper cutting of their exploits.
Will contact a museum.
The mention of the Samsung ML 2010R - does anyone know if it is a one cartridge or two cartridge, I find I use black ink more than any other and to have the colour on one single cartridge is expensive.
I see you have New Zealand relatives, I am in Tauranga, Bay of Plenty, NZ, the place where many New Zealanders take their holidays, sunshine, white sandy beaches, bush walks, a city, fishing trips, dolphins off shore. I am glad I live here.
Robin
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Wiltshire, Somerset, Gloucestershire - Bush, Strange, Whittington, Gunning, Doddington, Browning, Maltravers, Foliot, Rodborough, Balle
Shropshire - le Strange
Wales - Deulwyn, Dalwyn, Rede, Wirriott,
East Sussex - Catt, Ashdown, Barham, Henley, Lawrence, Hepden, Elliott, Phillips
London - Bush, King
Suffolk - Sewell, Knight, Baxter, Martin
Norfolk - Sewell, Larter, Howlett, Bacon:
Tasmania, Australia - Bossward
Worcestershire - Lloyd, Beach, Shepherd, Hemming
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Nick29
RootsChat Veteran
Offline
Posts: 567
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Kyt - thank you for your reply - I am still confused by "inkjet" and "mono-laser" - Nick 29 suggested the latter, and I will take note of what you say about the cheap ink.
Here's an explanation - I'll try not to complicate it too much 
Inkjet printers spray ink onto the page from tiny jets in the print-head. Early inkjet printer inks used vegetable dyes, which tended to fade both with age and the action of sunlight, because the ink slowly bio-degraded. Inks used in the latest printers use better dyes, but you can still get fading.
Laser printers are much more complicated, which is why they are more expensive. A "mono" laser just means a laser printer that will only print in black and white (and shades of grey!), but colour laser printers are available. The paper passes over a series of fine wires, carrying a high voltage, which leaves a static charge on the paper. The paper then passes under a scanning laser, and the brightness of the laser varies with the image content. The lightest areas of the picture receive the highest dose of laser light, and the action of the light breaks down the static charge on the paper. The paper is then sprayed with a fine powder of "toner", which is essentially tiny balls of plastic. The toner balls stick to where there is a static charge on the paper, and where there is no charge, the toner falls off. The paper then passes through a heated roller, where the toner is melted onto the paper. In colour printers, this process is repeated three more times with coloured dies. Many modern printers use light-emitting-diodes (LED's) are used in place of lasers. All this sounds quite lethal, but it all takes place inside the printer's case, so there is no danger to the user.
Inkjet printers are cheaper to buy outright, but you have to add in the costs of inks and toner. An inkjet printer can cost between 10p and 40p a page with branded inks, whilst mono lasers can cost between 1p and 6p a page with branded toner. Even cheaper if you refill your own cartridges.
Laser print will far outlast inkjet, because laser printers don't use inks at all - they use coloured plastic. Lasers also come into their own when you have lots of pages to print, because (although they suffer from a delay where the heated drum warms up), once they get going they can print a page much faster than an inkjet. Also, because the "ink" isn't liquid, there's no nozzles or jets to dry up and block, as there are on inkjet printers.
For further reading, here's some links on Laser and Inkjet printers
Main advantages of laser:
- Cheaper to run
- No waiting for ink to dry
- Ink doesn't fade so much
- Faster on multi-page runs
- Most laser printers will print on paper and card up to and including 180gsm
Advantages of inkjet:
- Cheap to buy
- Smaller and lighter than laser
- Some inkjet printers will print onto CD's and DVD's
Disadvantages of laser:
- More expensive to buy (although prices are coming down)
- 10 to 30 seconds delay on first page while drum heats up
- More long-term maintenance required
- You have to be careful not to use inkjet paper - it can cause damage !
Disadvantages of inkjet:
- Ink is very expensive
- Ink fades faster than laser
- Ink can dry up and block, especially in warm rooms
- Quite slow at multi-page printing
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Field - Luton & Islington
Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey
Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp - Suffolk
Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London)
Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire
Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent)
Wood - Hertfordshire
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Anne of Selby
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 22
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I remember having the conversation a few years ago about if it was better to save things to floppy, then it was CD now it's DVD, I wonder what it will be in 100 years.
As for me I save everything on CD with a back up plus I've still got my old floppies(just in case  )
But I print all christening, marriage and deaths with dates and places, in fact I print nearly everything. It's a lot easier trying to match up info if you can spread sheets of paper across a table
than moving from one text box to another.
I always copy snippets people send me from my rootsweb lists and FHSs, the weeks, months years later sit with a cuppa and go through them and sometimes see something and think-That's where the little devil went. :-)
There is also the main reason I save on paper, you can drop it, freeze it, screw it up, get it as dusty as you likeyou can even tear it and stick it back together again. Even after all this you can still read it well some of it.
Probably even more than these though is the fact that there is something more personal about reading a piece of paper than see it on your PC. It maybe my age or a woman thing I don't know but thats how I see it.
All the best, Anne.
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Anelay, Yorkshire
Chamberlain, Isle of Axhome
Crossland, Yorkshire
Coy, Yorkshire.
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king william
RootsChat Senior
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Posts: 296
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks to you both for your replies. My history is being put into photo albums which are photo-safe and I also want them to survive for my young grandchildren - and hopefully my -as yet unborn, and not for years yet - great-grandchildren. I have spent years doing this - I know they will not be interested for years, it was not that many years ago that I had absolutely no interest in my own family history. It was only after my father died and I found somne really old photos that I began to wonder about those people. Now I know that there were so many questions that my father could have answered if I had only asked.
The laser printing sounds much more certain although I still do not know what sort of paper or card the scrapbooking products are - they are acid-free and lignin-free, so no acid or wood in them but I now have the task of finding out whether they will be suitable for a laser printer.
Anne, I know what you mean about it being a woman thing, we like to look at it and touch it, it is why I have it all in albums so that they will be able to sit down with it and read it, as they do with the photo albums I am creating for each child and each grandchild, one history album for each family and one for my husband and I - I am actually doing 13 albums in total.
That is why I am so keen on getting this printing thingy correct as a page I did a few years ago is fading even though it has been in an album - that gave me such a fright that I sought the advice of this column.
Thanks to all of you and to Rootschat for the opportunity to contact others in this way - I tell people about it all the time here in Tauranga, New Zealand
Robin
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Wiltshire, Somerset, Gloucestershire - Bush, Strange, Whittington, Gunning, Doddington, Browning, Maltravers, Foliot, Rodborough, Balle
Shropshire - le Strange
Wales - Deulwyn, Dalwyn, Rede, Wirriott,
East Sussex - Catt, Ashdown, Barham, Henley, Lawrence, Hepden, Elliott, Phillips
London - Bush, King
Suffolk - Sewell, Knight, Baxter, Martin
Norfolk - Sewell, Larter, Howlett, Bacon:
Tasmania, Australia - Bossward
Worcestershire - Lloyd, Beach, Shepherd, Hemming
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Nick29
RootsChat Veteran
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Posts: 567
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Laser printers will print on just about any "virgin" paper or card - the only material you have to be careful with is paper which has been coated with something. Inkjet paper is coated with an extra-absorbent layer so that the ink soaks in and dries quickly, and this coating can deposit itself on the heated drum of a laser printer. Also, papers coated with plastic or other material which softens with heat would be a "no-no". All you have to do with lasers is to look for paper which is suitable for laser printers or copiers (photo-copiers work on the same principle as laser printers).
Incidentally, do you have Ebuyer in Australasia ? When you type in Ebuyer.com, it directs you to the nearest site, so I only see the UK one. I know there is one in America.
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Field - Luton & Islington
Hole - Somerset, Suffolk & Surrey
Farnish, Parker, Cattermole, Last, Wasp - Suffolk
Martin - Eltham & Greenwich, Kent (London)
Lewin/Lowin/Lowen - Hertfordhire
Stead - Greenwich, London (Kent)
Wood - Hertfordshire
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