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Topic: Looking for Francis Harris (Read 220 times)
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reen
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Posts: 43
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
I am looking for Francis Harris and think he may have been born in Birmingham around 1791 and his parents may have been John and Francis. I know he married Jane Gardener and they lived in Wolverhampton but I don't know when or where they married or where Jane came from. Help Please 
Reen
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reen
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 43
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
Thanks marg that does sound as though it could be them.
Reen
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reen
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 43
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Marg
I have confirmed that this is probably them. How do I go about getting more Information? Where do I look?
Reen 
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reen
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 43
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
I am working backwards. Would I be able to get a marriage cert. from 1807?
Regards Reen
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Valda
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Civil registration in England and Wales began on 1st July 1837. Before that date there are parish records only.
Marriage registers 1754-1837 will carry this information
The name of the groom and his parish of residence for the three weeks prior to the marriage (his status, bachelor or widower and sometimes an age if under age)
The name of the bride and her parish of residence for the three weeks prior to the marriage (sometimes her status, spinster or widow, sometimes an age if under age)
Whether the marriage was by licence or by banns
The date
The signature of the clergyman performing the ceremony
The signature of the groom (or his mark)
The signature of the bride (or her mark)
The signatures of at least two witnesses (or their marks)
http://www.british-genealogy.com/resources/registers/home.htm
To obtain a copy of the marriage register you would request a photocopy from the record office which holds the register specifying the church
FRANCIS HARRIS
JANE GARDNER
Marriage: 13 JUL 1807 St Philip, Birmingham, Warwick
this reference on the IGI - International Genealogical Index, sometimes called Family Search
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp
was submitted by a Mormon church member and is not taken directly from church records so should be treated with care. If it is correct the record office you request details from would be the Birmingham Record Office - Birmingham City Archives.
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=125600&CONTENT_ITEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=14638
However I would question carefully whether this is the right marriage. If you think Francis was born in 1791 then a marriage in 1807 would have been when he was only 16 and too young to support a wife and family. While families with inherited wealth could afford to marry younger if they so pleased for working men this was not an option.
What evidence do you have that the Francis Harris you are interested in married Jane Gardener. What is the evidence for Jane's maiden name? What evidence do you have that Francis was born in Birmingham and not in Staffordshire?
Though Birmingham and Wolverhampton are close it would be more unusual for a Birmingham born man to go and live in Wolverhampton. Birmingham was growing in size, set to become Britain's second city. It attracted a growing population of skilled craftsmen. The cities and towns to the north west of Birmingham in Staffordshire (between Birmingham and Wolverhampton) were known as 'the Black country' because of the heavy industrialised nature of the work found there and the smoke and pollution from such work. There has always been rivalry between Birmingham and the 'Black country' and Wolverhampton just slightly beyond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Country
1841 census HO107 1000/9 folio 16
Tettenhall Road Wolverhampton
Francis Harris 50 Ind. born Staffordshire
Jane Harris 18 Ind. born Staffordshire
Emma Harris 4 not born Staffordshire
On the 1841 census adult ages, those over 15, were usually rounded down to the nearest 5, so Francis' age on this census could be anywhere between 54 and 50 though ages might be far from exact. Places of birth - the yes and no of the 1841 census to born in the county can also be incorrect with people only having a more hazy idea about county boundaries.
Do you know Francis' exact age from his death certificate or burial? Did he die before the 1851 census?
What was Francis' occupation on his children's baptisms? If he didn't die before the 1851 census knowing his occupation might help track him down on that census.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
RootsChat Marquessate
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Posts: 6931
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Having looked back at your previous posts I can see that Samuel Harris the son of Francis died young and his widow Martha remarried. The 1851 census gives her second husband's occupation as a confectioner which is interesting and why I asked whether you knew what Francis' occuaption was? It is important to know whether Francis and to a lesser extent Samuel were confectioners. If you don't know I think you need to see a copy of the actual baptism registers which will give the father's occupation - definitely given after 1812 and sometimes before.
The reason for interest in whether Francis was a confectioner is this 1851 census entry.
1851 census HO107 2024 folio 96
John? Street Handsworth Staffordshire
Francis Harris Head 64 Married Retired confectioner Netherseal Leicestershire
Eliza Harris Wife 41 Married Liverpool
William Hollis 3 Nephew Birmingham
If this man did remarry between 1841 and 1851 and there is no proof that he did and is the Francis Harris you are interested in then this marriage is the most likely.
FRANCIS HARRIS
ELIZA HADLEY
Marriage: 08 MAY 1845 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
This Francis may not of course have even been in the Staffordshire area in 1841 so it is difficult to confirm whether he is the same man as the one in Wolverhampton on the 1841 census.
Eliza was a widow on the 1861 census.
RG9 2169 folio 68
194 High Street Aston Birmingham Warwickshire
William Hollis 47 Head Widower Grocer and Tea Dealer Pertenhall Bedfordshire
Eliza Harris 50 Sister-in-law Widow Housekeeper Liverpool
plus 5 boarders
There is a death registration for a Francis Harris in Birmingham registration district in 1857. If you can prove your Francis Harris was a confectioner and/or check to see whether this Francis left a will (not a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will - already checked online index at The National Archives) - for locally proved wills contact first Lichfield Record Office, a will might give further details of this man's children and help prove the link.
http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/LichfieldRecordOffice/
On the IGI this is a Mormon church member submitted record - not taken from the parish records themselves so it should be treated with caution.
Francis Harris
Christening: 04 MAY 1785 Netherseal, Leicester
Father: Samuel Harris
Mother: Elizabeth
A death certificate would also give a more exact age to tie in with this baptism, but a birth circa 1785 would make this Francis aged around 22 at the time of the 1807 marriage in Birmingham.
Interesting also that the father's name was Samuel but it doesn't prove the connection as Harris is such a common surname. The 1845 marriage, if correct, would give Francis' father's name and his occupation.
Netherseal seems to be at least in the C19th officially in Derbyshire but on the Leicestershire county border - known also as Seal.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DBY/Seal/index.html
Google maps
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4HPEA_en-GBGB236GB236&q=%22netherseal%22&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl
Before trying to go further back I would consolidate the records you have of the baptisms of Francis' children and of Samuel's. The more information you hold on these men (did Samuel leave a will, did Martha's second husband?) the more you will be able to prove earlier connections and the more rounded and interesting these people will become. This is particularly important with a common surname like Harris. Otherwise you are just grasping at possibilities on internet indexes such as the IGI (which is a very impartial index - just because a baptism is on it doesn't make it the right baptism).
Regards
Valda
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reen
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 43
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Valda
Thank you for all that information you have given me a lot to think about and work on. Francis was a confectioner and He owned a confectionary shop in Wolverhampton, the family lived in Tettenhall Rd a relative has told me it was the 3rd house from the city end but we do not know if that is where the shop was. The 1791 date was a baptism not a birth date and he may have been a few years old then. I know that jane died in 1837 but could not find anything on Francis so I will check out the 1857 one.
Once again thank you for all your help.
regards
Reen
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Valda
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Reen
By the 1871 census Eliza Harris was still with her brother-in-law William Hollis who had returned to Pertenhall in Bedfordshire. On the 1881 and 1891 censuses Eliza was with her cousin Louisa Hadley in Leamington Priors Warwickshire.
This seems her most likely death registration - 40 years after her husband's possible death.
Deaths Dec 1897
Harris Eliza 85 Warwick 6d 389
She may or may not have kept in touch with any step children and step grandchildren and remembered them in any will she might have made.
Tettenhall Road Wolverhampton to John Street Handsworth is about 15 miles.
Regards
Valda
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