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Topic: Clarke problem-need ideas! (Read 1562 times)
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Burto
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 472
Enjoying the silence
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Hi,
My ancestor, Josephann Clarke was born in Nottingham abt 1832 to Joseph, a Lawyer, and Ann Clarke, possible maiden name King.
Her sister, Salome Asenath Clarke was registered at St Mary's in 1830.
My problem is after searching through my Mum's NFHS disk of baptisms Josephann (including variants like Josephine, Ann and even Joseph!) is not listed. On Freereg she isn't. On Familysearch she isn't.
Why would this be? In 1861 Ann and Salome are living in Liverpool, so I thought maybe they came from there and Josephann was born there, but she states she was born in Nottingham on the census.
I'd really appreciate any thoughts as to why she appears to have not been registered!
Many thanks.
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Swift , Matthews, Price , Clarke , Rockley, Dewey, Turton, Wild, Nottingham
Aldread, Brentnall, Cowlishaw Derbyshire
Elliot, The Borders/Nottingham FWK industry
Smith Bilston Staffordshire
Bennett, Calary? Ireland
Johnson, USA
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sunflower
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1619
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Hi
She wouldn't have been registered as the registation of BMD's didn't start until 1837. Salome was baptised at St. Mary's 15.02.1830. if the family moved around then the baptism of Josephann could be anywhere.
Carol
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Derby- Bamford,Slater,Marriott,Lee,Fox,Hopkinson,Hawksley, Furniss, Froggatt, Stodd. Notts - Breeding, Lacey Marriott ,Kershaw,Chambers,Geeson,Mitchell,Watts,Peel,Potts,Slack,Robinson, Cooper Yorkshire - Potts, Bell, Derbyshire, Kershaw Worcestershire - Dyson, Summers, Dearn, Jones Warwickshire - Russon Leicestershire - Stodd, Sarson, Berridge, Watts, Bradshaw. Middlesex / Surrey - Markham, Pearce, Kalaher, Barrett This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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Burto
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 472
Enjoying the silence
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Hi,
The disc my Mum has has Salome's entry so presumably it is a parish records disc?
I tried just putting Josephann Clark with all counties on Familysearch and a few came up, but nothing that fits in with mine.
I just wondered if there is a record of Salome in 1830 and they are listed as being in Nottingham in 1841 why isn't Josephann listed?
Thanks for the info Sunflower.
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Swift , Matthews, Price , Clarke , Rockley, Dewey, Turton, Wild, Nottingham
Aldread, Brentnall, Cowlishaw Derbyshire
Elliot, The Borders/Nottingham FWK industry
Smith Bilston Staffordshire
Bennett, Calary? Ireland
Johnson, USA
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willow154
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3157
Mum - Such love
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Hi Burto,
Checked for you on the NFHS disc and can't find a birth for a Josephann ......... also tried noncomformist list , too.
Have you found any details of her marriage at a later date, Burto?
Just wondering what they have her name down as, on her marriage details. If there are any, that is! 
Paulene 
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Burto
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 472
Enjoying the silence
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Hi Pauline,
Thanks for getting in touch. Her marriage is listed as Joseph Ann Clark who married Samuel Burton in 1853 at St Mary's.
Her son, my ancestor's, baptism is also listed as Samuel and Joseph Ann as his parents. It is strange.
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Swift , Matthews, Price , Clarke , Rockley, Dewey, Turton, Wild, Nottingham
Aldread, Brentnall, Cowlishaw Derbyshire
Elliot, The Borders/Nottingham FWK industry
Smith Bilston Staffordshire
Bennett, Calary? Ireland
Johnson, USA
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willow154
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3157
Mum - Such love
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Hi Burto,
Well, this is a curious one (if that's the right word for it!)
Been looking at various resources this afternoon and evening (CDs etc) and can't find anything except the marriage in 1853. Looked for burial and details to see if there were any other children who died to give a clue as to where they were in the area.
I notice there was a baptism for a Louisa Caroline Clarke on 30 Jun, 1820 - but the parents were Joseph and Elizabeth. Occupation of this Joseph was Sawyer, and I wonder if your Joseph was a sawyer, too, as sometimes the 'S' can be misinterpreted as 'L'. The address gven is Pear Street, too. Pear Street is off Sussex Street(Turncalf Alley) - Broad Marsh area. Lots of Clark/es in Nottingham with this occupation. Then there's a death for an Elizabeth Clarke, aged 41 who died in 1824, abode Turncalf Alley. All possibilities, but nothing concrete.
I think I'm right in saying that the marriage to Ann, was the one that took place in 1829 (Ann King) at Nottingham, St. Marys.
She seems to be widowed by 1841 - living with Salome and ANN on West Side, near Beck Street. On the 1851 they're living at Denmark Court, St.Anns. Joseph Ann's birth date given as about 1833. BUT, like you, I can't find it!!!
See the child Louisa Caroline died at the age of 10 months in 1821, abode Holland Street, near Goose Gate/Coalpit Lane. So, was Joseph older than Ann and was this his second marriage/or even third???
Found a death for a Salome Clark in the Sept quarter of 1888 - Nottingham 7b 190
aged 58 years, which would be right age - looked for her burial place details but without success.
What we need is to find the marriage entry for Joseph and Ann, to see if it is by banns or licence - and if it is by licence and you can find it, Burto, then it may give all sorts of useful information. eg. if Joseph was a widower, his age, etc.
But, that doesn't solve the mystery of the missing birth for JosephAnn in 1833! I did notice on the bmd register for her marriage that it's spelt Jesepp Ann Clark. But looked for that, too, but nothing - what is she down as on her death details, Burto?
Both children have such strange names, don't they!
Anyway, just a few thoughts - might be worth you contacting/emailing the Nottinghamshire Archives to see if they have details of a marrriage licence in their book.
Will let you know if anything else comes to light - still pondering/scratching my head.
Paulene
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Burto
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 472
Enjoying the silence
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Hi Pauline,
Thank you so much for all your help. I do wonder if you have something regarding Joseph marrying twice-although the archives said on Salome's baptism he is down as Lawyer maybe the S looks like an L!
I don't know about Joseph Ann's death-just had a look on Freebmd and there's nothing that resembles her name other than Josephs and Ann's!!!
I agree both children do have strange names!
When you said find the marriage entry of Joseph and Ann, did you mean the Ann King marriage? Are we to assume this is the right couple?
Many thanks.
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Swift , Matthews, Price , Clarke , Rockley, Dewey, Turton, Wild, Nottingham
Aldread, Brentnall, Cowlishaw Derbyshire
Elliot, The Borders/Nottingham FWK industry
Smith Bilston Staffordshire
Bennett, Calary? Ireland
Johnson, USA
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willow154
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3157
Mum - Such love
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Hi Burto,
Yes, I did mean the Joseph and Ann King marriage - whether it is the right one I don't know, but it's the only one I could find.
I've been through the sequence of events I think happened to the family - can you let me know if you have the same, Burto:
Marriage 1829
Birth of Salome A 1830
Birth of JosephAnn (?) 1833
Death of Joseph Dec qtr 1837 Nottm vol 15 page 373
(can't see any other one that fits on burial list)
* Hopefully, if this is the right one it will confirm Joseph's age at death, wife's name, address, and occupation.
!841:
Address; West Side of Beck Lane, Nottm
HO107 piece 869 Book 1
1851:
8 Denmark Court
Anne'sccupation - Hose Ironer
HO107 Piece 2132 Folio 434 39
1861:
3 Hollowstone, Nottingham
Occupation: Milliner and smallware dealer
RG9 Piece 22464 Folio 39 page 12
1871:
18 Harper Street, West Derby, Lancs
Occupation: Milliner dressmaker
RG10 Piece 3839 Folio 92 page 34
1881:
16 Flackland Street, Liverpool
Occupation milliner
* Salome Monath/Clarke
RG11 Piece 3629 Folio 49 page 46
1888:
Death of Salome CLARK Sep qtr
Nottm 7b page 180 age: 58 yrs
1891:
22 Alms House Park St
(St.Nicholas district, Nottm)
Ann Clarke - living on own means with Ann Burton (widow) 58 yrs Housekeeper
RG12 Piece 2683 Folio 13 page 19
1895:
Death of Ann CLARKE
Sep qtr age 85
Nottm 7b 153 (* nearest)
1901:
Ann Burton ? Lace Hand
address: ?Every/Ebery Place, Nottm
Living with daughter Ellen Mullen and her children.
RG13 Piece 3166 Folio 86 page 16
1911:
Death Mar qtr
Ann BURTON age 78 years
Nottm 7b 249
Re-checked for birth c. 1833 for Ann Clarke but cannot find anything - both NFHS + family search. Even tried c 1836 because of info given on 1891 census re Ann Burton's age, but still nothing.
There's a birth for an Ann Clark 09 Oct 1833, St Peter's, Liverpool
Parents Joseph and Hannah
But, it's along shot, Burto.
Anyway, have a look through and let me know if this is what you have found, and we'll take it from here.
Better get off to bed - had visitors all day so didn't get stuck into research until late.
Bye for now,
Paulene
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Burto
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 472
Enjoying the silence
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Hi Pauline,
Yes I have those same events. What is interesting is it seems that Joseph Ann's husband, Samuel Burton, spent time working in Liverpool whilst Ann and Salome were there. He was born abt 1833 in Nottingham and he appears on the 1871 census as being there, although why he would leave his family I have no idea! His father was born in Nottingham and his mother in Ireland so I can't see any other connection with Liverpool for him.
I don't know if the Ann Clark and Ann Burton are the right ones, although I noticed that a Samuel and Ann Burton had an Ellen born 08/01/1864. It says they lived at Barker Gate so it's definately them in 1901 but I'm not sure about 1891?
Why has she now dropped the Joseph?!
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Logged
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Swift , Matthews, Price , Clarke , Rockley, Dewey, Turton, Wild, Nottingham
Aldread, Brentnall, Cowlishaw Derbyshire
Elliot, The Borders/Nottingham FWK industry
Smith Bilston Staffordshire
Bennett, Calary? Ireland
Johnson, USA
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Burto
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 472
Enjoying the silence
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What about this one on Familysearch:
Ann Clarke
03 AUG 1834 Saint Peter, Nottingham, Nottingham, England
It says parents John and Ann Clarke...maybe transcribed wrong?
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Swift , Matthews, Price , Clarke , Rockley, Dewey, Turton, Wild, Nottingham
Aldread, Brentnall, Cowlishaw Derbyshire
Elliot, The Borders/Nottingham FWK industry
Smith Bilston Staffordshire
Bennett, Calary? Ireland
Johnson, USA
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willow154
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3157
Mum - Such love
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Hi Burto,
Haven’t yet looked at possibilities of baptism you found (next job), as I’m still trying to find what happened to Ann (JA) Burton in 1871 and 1881 – can’t find them, although I’ve got Samuel (Burten on one) on both. Can’t find Samuel in 1861 though – where is he, Burto?
Strange, as you say that they’re not together.
Found an Ann Burton in a Nottingham workhouse, but she’s unmarried. No sign of the children, either!!!
I believe they had 2 both baptised at Nottingham St.Mary (may be some in Liverpool):
Robert, baptised 22 Aug 1859
Father Samuel (lace dresser) Mother JosephAnn Address: Plough Lane
Ellen, born 08 Jan 1864, baptised 27 Mar 1864
Father Samuel (lace dresser) Mother Anne Address: Barker Gate
May have been others but not baptised/died before baptism – long time between births, but Samuel may have been moving about even at that time.
I’m almost certain that the 1891 details for Ann (JA) Burton and her mother Ann Clarke are right.
Perhaps the whole family went together to Liverpool for work reasons in the 1860s – maybe Ann Clarke and Salome followed later, to be with them or to support Ann (JA) – perhaps there were problems for her and Samuel then.
Samuel is described as a boarder in 1871 which I believe usually means non-paying, and sometimes related to the family. He’s a lodger in 1881 – which usually means paying and not related.
Ann Clarke and Salome were definitely back in Nottingham in 1888, as Salome sadly dies there. Now did Ann (JA) go back with them, or after her husband’s death in Liverpool, in Jun qtr of 1890? (Reckon this must be him – but tell me if I’m wrong). The death certificate might clarify this – name of informant might be Ann (JA).
But, I feel the 1891 census showing her and her mum lving in th almshouses is probably them.
Where the children Robert and Ellen are I don’t know – tried everything but can’t find them!!!
Can’t find a marriage to a ? Mullen to Ellen either, between 1880 and 1901.
As far as Ann (JA)’s name is concerned – she seems to swop and change, doesn’t she? Maybe the name was given to differentiate between her or her mother, at the baptism. Maybe someone was nervous and got mixed up – it does happen! Maybe they weren’t absolutely sure of the babies’ sex (unlikely though) so thought this was a safe bet. Maybe they thought it sounded good – bit like Josephine. The spelling on the marriage registration is odd though!
Lots going on in 1832, in Nottingham, with the cholera outbreak - lots of deaths, panic, etc. Extra duties for the parish clerk, overseer of the poor – new burial grounds, etc.
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/lss/services/mss/learning/health-housing/theme1/background1.doc
Perhaps that's why they moved from the area near Broadmarsh.
Anyway, will look at the baptism now, and let you mull this over.
Bye for now,
Paulene
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willow154
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3157
Mum - Such love
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Hi Burto,
Had a look, but don't think it's the one - father on that one is a cowkeeper, living at Harrington Street. 
Wonder if the denominations caused a problem for Samuel and ANN (JA)? Just a thought - could be all sorts of things.
Will keep looking, but let me know if you know what happened to Ann (JA) in 1871 and 1881, please.
Curious lot aren't they - but they're the ones that make life interesting, though a bit complicated, to say the least! 
If it's any consolation, I've got ones like that, too!
Paulene
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Burto
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 472
Enjoying the silence
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Hi,
I'm having trouble finding Joseph Ann in 1881!!! What is even more bizarre is that her son, Robert's family in 1891 decided to call themselves Clarkes!!!
It seems he took a double barrelled name but in 1891 his wife is down as Lavinia Clark and his son Albert Clark!!! And Robert's disappeared in 1891 too!!!
Saying that, can't find him in 1881 either....he married Lavinia Shepherd in 1883.
Samuel and Joseph Ann also had Margaret born abt 1855 and Joseph Clark Burton born Mar qtr 1855 . I can't find them on Freereg and Margaret is't on FreeBMD.
It's so confusing!! Why all the name changing?
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Logged
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Swift , Matthews, Price , Clarke , Rockley, Dewey, Turton, Wild, Nottingham
Aldread, Brentnall, Cowlishaw Derbyshire
Elliot, The Borders/Nottingham FWK industry
Smith Bilston Staffordshire
Bennett, Calary? Ireland
Johnson, USA
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willow154
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3157
Mum - Such love
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Hi Burto,
Perhaps it's my suspicious mind, but I did wonder if the young woman who is also boarding with the family he's with in 1871 had a particular significance  Husband and wife don't seem to appear together much after that date (or before for that mattter). If there was trouble in the family that might explain why the son changed his name to his mother's maiden name.
It would be soooo interesting to know who the informant is on Samuel's death certificate.
Back to Joseph:
Was thinking earlier that if he was a lawyer (and I personally am not convinced - sorry) that he would have been fairly wealthy. So, I looked for a PCC will online - nothing. I would have thought there might be a will, and it's possible there is one listed in the index (2 of them) at the Nottinghamshire Archives. If you email them I suspect they'll tell you, and not charge. The index card will tell you an occupation and place of abode, hopefully.
He might also have done an apprenticeship, which will give details of occupation, etc. They have an index for that, too - you should be able to work out his approx. date of birth from that.
Bit of a struggle - just like my lot from the Black Country - 3 lots missing on one census + a death and burial. 
Anyway, I'll help you look for Robert, Burto - not v hopeful, though!
Paulene
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willow154
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3157
Mum - Such love
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Forgot to ask where Robert and co. are in 1891, Burto? Can you send me a ref., please.
Wondered if Samuel left Nottingham for a reason, and that's why they changed their name - sorry, get carried away, now.
Paulene
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