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Pages: 1 [2] 3
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Topic: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican (Read 1863 times)
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telnorm
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Paul, having decided yesterday to get back to my family history after a two months break, I invested in some credits for the 1911 census. Then this morning I find your messages. This is brilliant.
I would be delighted with any info whatsoever on the crowthers and I thank you for the info on Margaret jane who I could never find her death date or burial. I have just found Caroline on the 1911 census living with Elizabeth Johnson ( also a boarding house owner) and one of Bens johnsons.
The y-chromosome sounds intriguing and I loved to find out which of g,granddad lot you are from. great to hear from you, many regards Terry Crowther
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PaulSlo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear Terry,
Some births and deaths info.
Benjamin Crowther - born around 1790, Scholes/Birstall area. Died age aged 62, 8 Mabgate Fold, 27.3.1852. I know approximately where his grave in Beckett St. is.
George Crowther - born 1827, baptised feb.3rd at Birstall. married Sarah Ann Denison, Feb. 9th 1850, Leeds parish Church. He was originally a cloth dyer, but worked as a coal leader, then maybe as a dyer again, before running a 'swingboat' at travelling fairs. After he became a publican in the late 1870's, he then took over a lodging house at 7 East Street. In his will of 13.6.1892 he bequeaths his money and personal property to his children. Caroline is given special mention - 'I give and bequeath absolutely to my daughter Caroline for her own separate and sole use all Fixtures and Furnishings on or about the premises now occupied by me at Seven East Street, Leeds'...He seems to have turned the lodging house over to her, since his death certificate has his profession as a 'pattern dyer'. He died on 30.5.1894. His wife pre-deceased him on 25.6. 1884 (at 'Stainburn Street'). George had a lot of children, three of whom died in infancy.
William Crowther - George's son, born 19.10.1859 at 8 Mabgate Fold. He worked in the pub with his father, and by 1901 was a 'Carter'. He married Hannah Enoch on 12.8. 1885, but she died on 1.3.1886. He re-married to Margaret Jane Mackenzie on 13.12. 1887. Maggie was born 9.5.1862 at 17, Young Street, Aberdeen. By 1881, she was working as a 'woolen weaver' at Mirfield, living with her sister Euphemia, and younger brother John. Wiiliam died of cancer of the lower jaw on 29.5.1908. (This is not a common cancer, and may be connected to the fact that in the 1871 census he is listed as a 'matchmaker'. Matchmakers often smoothed the matches orally and many contracted this cancer - known colloquially as 'phossie jaw'.) Maggie Mackenzie died of pneumonia on 4.12.1911. She was a woman of such ample girth that, apparently, the coffin had to be lowered from the window of her dwelling. Another family tale has it that her younger brother turned up athe funeral wearing a kilt and Scottish regalia, and was punched by one of Willie's sons, on the grounds that he'd never cared about her whilst she was alive... She was buried separately from Willie, as he was interred in George's grave along with George's wife Sarah, Hannah Enoch, Annie Gallagher, and Benjamin Johnson. The grave was, therefore, officially classified as 'full'.
Willie and Maggie had at least 8 children. These included Euphemia (born in 1890) - who looked after the young ones when both parents were dead. I remember meeting her at my Grandad Crowther's funeral in 1967. I also met another of their children - yet another Benjamin. He lived in Beeston and was still alive in the 1980's, though I had no further contact with him. The youngest child, my grandad - Henry - was born on 25.10.1902, and died 12.12.1967. My cousin Gary Murphy did ALL the research which I'm quoting from, and he was unable to find birth certificates for the other children - Benjamin (ibid), John, William, and George.( The other children were Robert - born in 1897, and Mary Ann, born in 1900)
As for dwelling places. Mabgate Fold was demolished in the late nineteenth-century when the Hope Iron Foundry was extended. The extension took the form of a grand neo-classical building which is still standing. If you go into the yard there, there are cobbles probably left over from Mabgate Fold, and there is an incongruous building in the corner which may be a remnant of the Fold. The building adjoins the grim and filthy Lady Beck which is mainly covered, but you can still see it beneath Hope Street Bridge. This area was called the 'Leylands' and was infamous for its insanitary conditions. Disease was rife. Linsley Fold is gone, but part of New Church Lane is recorded on the Leodis photo website, as are images of Wool Street, and Weavers Square. Stainburn Square/Street was demolished in the early 1930's. I know of no images of it.
When I was a boy, I remember that Grandad Crowther had photographs of Willie, and of Maggie on his wall. Alas, when he died, his wife seems to have thrown them away. I can't remember them with any accuracy now.
I'll have to do another reply concerning the genetic ancestry.
Best wishes,
Paul
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« Last Edit: Saturday 31 October 09 21:09 UTC (UK) by PaulSlo »
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PaulSlo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear Terry,
As for distant genetic ancestry, there is a fascinating tale to be told. The paternal line of descent transmits genetic markers - mutations that appear at a specific time in specific individuals, but which are then transmitted to all male descendants. These markers define what are called 'haplogroups'. Through these, one can determine the distant origins of one's ancestry. Almost all people in the British Isles are members of the haplogroup Rb1, (or, a minority) are of Scandinavian groups (whose designation I don't recall). What this shows is that most Brits are descended from people who took refuge in Iberia, or in the Balkans during the ice age. They emerged from Africa and came to Iberia,or from the Balkans to Scandinavia via the middle east.
Our Crowther line, however, is completely different. Via Benjamin, George and Willie, I have inherited the haplogroup marker N1c1. Members of this group left Africa and went into Iran, then northern China, and then into Siberia - where the exact N1c1 marker arose about 10.000 years ago.(Native Siberians have it most). It then spread with Uralic speakers (i.e.languages related to Finnish) across northern Russia into Finland and the Baltic states. About 60% of Finns, and between a third and a half of Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians have it. It's especially common amongst the Saami people (i.e, Laplanders). What this means is that somewhere along the line our Uralic ancestors became involved with Vikings or Normans (Normans being Viking in origin) and came over with them. My guess is that we spring either from Saami connected with Norsemen, or from Courlanders (from Lithuania) who connected with Danes or Swedes.
I know of one other Crowther (an American) who also is N1c1. His ancestors came from our areas - between Halifax, Leeds, and Bradford. There is a southern English Crowther I know of. His ancestors are from the only non-northen area of England where there is some concentration of Crowthers, namely Shropshire - but he's a Rb1 member. From all this I infer that the northern Crowthers are probably mainly of Uralic origin, whilst the southern ones aren't.
Any way that's all for now - I have to feed the reindeer.
Best wishes,
Paul
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telnorm
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Paul, thank for the family information and chromosome profile which is fascinating. Your cousin must have spent quite some time researching and has certainly done a fine job. I am assuming that your grandfather was Henry ( harry on 1911 census) the youngest of william and magarets children.
You refer to Euphemia being the oldest of william and magarets children born 1890 but according to my info, William was born in 1887 the same year as willie and magarets marriage. Also according to the 1891 and 1901 censuses there was a John born in 1885 ( could he be Hannah enochs child I wonder). Just out of interest I did find Hannah Enoch age 8 on the 1871 census living at 17 stainburn sq. My grandad William married Mary Ann Ohara in 1909 and my father , again William was born in 1912. My father died in feb 1944 and is buried in the war graves cemetery at khayat beach Israel and my mother remarried after the war. As a result I know very little about my Crowther family other than my uncle Frank who I remember and his son my cousin Frank ( who used to be a landlord in the Leeds area) and recent information from Ben re the close Crowther/Johnson connections and the fairground interest. Ben and myself went to huddersfield library last year and we thing that we have the info to go back further than Benjamin 1790, but we are still working on this. Thanks again for the chromosome profile it really is interesting and I hope that your reindeers are well fed and settled for the night. many regards Terry
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PaulSlo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Dear Terry,
Thanks for your posting. I should point out that all the dates and documents were researched by Gary Murphy in the mid 1990's. Unfortunately, I have lost contact with him. All the family anecdotes, interpretation of data, and descriptions of locales are my work (as is the stuff about the N1c1 chromosome - which is, ocf course - a genetic marker that you and any male offspring share as well).
Gary was always puzzled about not being able to find documentation about some of Willie and Maggie's children. I think that we both thought Euphemia was the oldest, but your points do refute that. Gary couldn't find entries for Willie and Maggie in the 1891 census and imagined that they might be travelling. Hannah died within a year of her marriage from 'acute psithis' whatever that is. If they had a child it must have been fast, or out of wedlock.
I live in Slovenia, and find it hard to get access - even online - to census data, but I'd be interested to know if there are details of Willie and Maggie's household for 1891.
Henry or 'Harry' Crowther was born in 1902 and worked as a baker in his younger years and then as a labourer in a sawmill after the second world war. He lived at 9, Brander Mount on the Gipton estate in Leeds from 1937. There were 4 children - 3 girls and my dad - also a Henry/ Harry (born 1927). Henry senior joined up in 1939. After an incident where he punched an officer or NCO who'd been bullying a young friend of his, he (and the young man) were put in a penal battalion. Ironically, the company they were removed from was subsequently annihilated in a crossfire.
And it ended badly as well. On the beaches at Dunkirk, the remnants of the penal battalion were bombed or shelled and the young guy's head was blown off, next to my Grandad. Thereafter he had a great hatred of authority.
For the rest of the war he served in the Pioneer Corps at Scapa Flow in the Shetlands. On demobilization he brought a little terrier dog called Tina back with him. I have a vague memory of the dog's presence - and asking where she'd gone after she died - but can't visualize her.
My dad joined up as a professional soldier in early 1945, but the war ended before he'd completed basic training. Therefter he served in Palestine for three years. On demob, he worked in a sawmill, but eventually became a semi-skilled worker as a springsmith. he was married in 1951, and thereafter lived in south Leeds (Hunslet, Middleton) and then Burley-in-Wharfedale.
I can't recall him talking about an Uncle Frank, but the name is familiar. (He died in January 2009, so I can't ask him, now.) It's odd that our families connect indirectly through Gipton estate and Palestine!
Best wishes,
Paul
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PaulSlo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Further info.
George Crowther's father Benjamin was christened on the 6th February 1791 at Birstall.
He married Sarah Kitson (born in 1797 at Heckmondwike) on 17th September 1818.
Their daughter Mary Ann was christened on 21st August 1825 at Birstall. She married a William Potts, and lived at Holbeck in Leeds. Her date of death may be in 1875.
A William Crowther was married to Elizabeth Mann at Birstall on 28th May 1766, and so may have been Benjamin's grandad.
Obviously the Birstall Parish Church records must have the more exact details.
Best wishes,
Paul
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PaulSlo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I've deleted the original entry here concerning the supposed ancestry of Benjamin Crowther, because I got it wrong. *This is the 'booboo' referred to in a later entry.
Paul
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« Last Edit: Saturday 31 October 09 21:14 UTC (UK) by PaulSlo »
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PaulSlo
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Another corrected entry. I've deleted stuff about Benjamin's supposed ancestry because of points that are made clear in a subsequent posting. But one thing from my original posting remains correct. Our Benjamin Crowther (George's Dad) could indeed write - as is shown by the evidence collected by Gary Murphy which I cite in a subsequent posting.
This contains a sad story in itself. Like most people in Scholes, he seems to have worked in cloth, but the coming of industrialization impoverished him, and he had to move to Leeds for factory work. So whilst he must have been able to read and write, he was so impoverished by the coming of the machines, that he wasn't able to afford for his children to be educated. So none of his children were literate.
Paul
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« Last Edit: Saturday 31 October 09 21:23 UTC (UK) by PaulSlo »
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g0ldfish
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 11
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hello,
I thought I would write to see if anyone researching Crowther in Leeds area knew of my particular George Crowther
George Crowther (born Birstal) age 43 in 1861, agent for manufacturing chemist. lived in Holbeck, Leeds with wife Elizabeth and children Martha, Louisa and Mary (address looks like Mansfield House)
George Crowther age 50 ? in 1871, is a cloth fuller. He lived in Batley, Dewsbury with wife Elizabeth, daughters Mary( single), Martha (married) and Louisa (married). all the spouse and children are in the resdience
George Crowther is my 3G grandfather.
I am interested if you know of this line?
Many thanks
Jon
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teaup
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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my nana was Euphemia Crowther she married George Mark, nana died in 1972
what a great lady.
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telnorm
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Teacup, Euphemia was, as Benny says the sister of my grandad William. I have a copy of grandad Williams marriage cert to Mary Ann Ohara in july 1909 where Euphemia and her future husband George Mark were the witnesses. Euphemia and George married in sept 1909 which I am sure you know.
I also have got Euphemia and George on the 1911 census living on the bank at Grantham st.
Euphemia was the daughter of William Crowther 1859 and Margaret ( maggie) Jane Mackenzie and Williams father was George Crowther 1827 and sarah ann. We are hopeful of taking the tree back quite a bit further.
Nice to hear from you. Would love to hear more about Euphemia. regards Terry Crowther
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teaup
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 12
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi
Thanks for you reply. Euphemia and george had 7 children (5 boys- 2 girlys)
George past away in 1955. Have a photo taken of them just before george
died. They had a house in the Wyebeckes in Leeds.
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telnorm
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 9
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks Teacup for the picture of Euphemia. As we have a shortage of Crowther pictures this one is very welcome. Thanks again. Regards Terry Crowther
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