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Topic: Benjamin Clive (b1847) mothers name mystery (Read 185 times)
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Steven1966
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 69
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I am interested in Benjamin Clives (b 01.02.1847) who at the age of 21 married Ann Simkiss age 20, on 06.12.1869. I have a copy of the marriage certificate and Benjamin's birth certificate, on both his father is listed as a Benjamin Clive, gun barrel filer. Benjamin's own trade, is the same as his father, a gun barrel filer.
On his birth certificate his mother is listed as an Emily Gibbins, yet the birth certificate for his brother William Thomas lists an Emily Halfpenny. Now the only marriage between a Benjamin Clive (snr) and an Emily, that I can find gives an Emily Halfpenny.
My confusion is further compounded by the IGI index, where Benjamin and his brother William Thomas's mother is given as an Emma (the dates match the certificates). In fact the mother for them and all their siblings, except two, are listed on the IGI Index as an Emma. The two that aren't the mother is an Emily.
On the IGI Index most of the children seem to have two christian names, when I can find them on a census's, they seem to be using their second names.
Where I can find the family on the census's, (some of the mistranscriptions of the name Clive, have been Clovis, Clay, Chia, infact for the 1861 census I have given up looking), the mother is listed as Emily.
Now I have a theory or two. (1) Emma/Emily is the same woman, in that she has two christian names (either Emily Emma.... or Emma Emily....) and uses one or the other, for what reason, who know's? (2) as regards the two differing maiden names, I think her name is Halfpenny and Gibbins is her own mothers maiden name and for some reason, she used that on one of the birth certificates.
My question is has any one else come across something similar in their family tree, are my theories (in an attempt to expalin this), sound ones, or am I really barking up the wrong tree and need to start again.
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Surnames that am researching are,Siddons,Coulson,Clives,Peers,White,Swingler,and Lambeth,all of Aston/Duddeston/Hockley in Birmingham,Warwickshire.
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Cas (stallc)
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2866
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This looks a good possible....1861 down as Benjamin Olive, do you have access?
1861 - RG9 Piece 2184 Folio 90 Page 4 Aston
Mother is down as Emma
Cas
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Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop Bray - Cornwall Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs Baggot, Flynn -Ireland |
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Steven1966
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 69
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That is them, the names and ages are all right, for each of them. How on earth did you come up with Olive for the surname, was it a piece of lateral thinking?
That Emma thing has come up again though.
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Surnames that am researching are,Siddons,Coulson,Clives,Peers,White,Swingler,and Lambeth,all of Aston/Duddeston/Hockley in Birmingham,Warwickshire.
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Cas (stallc)
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2866
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I just left out surname. put in Ben* dob, pob with mother emily...then tried emma. Olive seemed to be in line with transcript error checked details, and occ, parents fit. 
Do you think it possible she was born Gibbins, and possibly there was a remarriage, or possibly illegit, and her mother married, so she would be Gibbins at birth, but took the name Halfpenny? Or vice versa.
I have not checked all census but it does seem like the same woman.
Does age, pob match in census ?
Cas
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Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop Bray - Cornwall Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs Baggot, Flynn -Ireland |
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Cas (stallc)
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2866
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The dau is christened Emily Martha, but 1861 gives her as Emma (lar) M
Also check this, think it is the same woman, but surname gibbins/halfpenny need to be researched
http://www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=emma
Cas
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Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop Bray - Cornwall Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs Baggot, Flynn -Ireland |
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Steven1966
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 69
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I take my hat off, to your experience on this .
When trying to find them I started with Benjamin Clive and took one letter off the surname in each succesive search, until I ended up doing a search for Benjamin C.
The family are mistranscribed in three successive census's, Clay in 1851, where the mother is given as Emma, Olive in 1861, where her name is given as Emma and then Chia in 1871 where her name is given as Emily!!
Yes I have the daughter as Emily Martha (b 13-11-1848), you can sort of see where the mistranscription comes in. All the ages are very good matches for the info I have.
That's another possibility for the Gibbins/Halfpenny surname thing and one I hadn't consisdered. The link to the name Emma is very interesting and does help, one hell of a lot.
Stephen
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Surnames that am researching are,Siddons,Coulson,Clives,Peers,White,Swingler,and Lambeth,all of Aston/Duddeston/Hockley in Birmingham,Warwickshire.
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Cas (stallc)
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2866
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I think she is possibly Emily at birth, and Emma is a pet name, check the link above for Emily.
There are a few bapt on IGI, that could fit, but do think she is the same.
Good luck
Cas
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Census information is Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk Davies, Roderick - Myddfai Carms Lloyd, Jones - Denbigh/Salop Bray - Cornwall Gibbons, Mordecai/Mort, Squire, Thomas, David/Davies, Joseph, Bowen, Lewis, Rees, Williams, Jones, Llewellyn, Morgan - Glam Gibbons, Timbrell, Beale, Ludlow - Glos/Wilts Shoemac, Squire, Keirle, Small - Somerset Berry, Baggot, Lee, Clayton - Lancs Baggot, Flynn -Ireland |
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Steven1966
RootsChat Extra
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Posts: 69
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Cas
Thank you very much for all that you have done.
The getting a "fresh pair of eyes" to look at it thing has really worked. It's given what was beginning to stall, fresh movement.
I will report back via this thread in the next few days.
Many Thanks
Stephen
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Surnames that am researching are,Siddons,Coulson,Clives,Peers,White,Swingler,and Lambeth,all of Aston/Duddeston/Hockley in Birmingham,Warwickshire.
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