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Topic: Henry SMITH and Dinah Ellen GRAY (Read 3951 times)
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jamajo
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 3293
My lovely gran
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Hi Deb,
Hope you dont mind but i had a look on Oxfordshire Marriage Index as i was sure i had
see a Wisdom Smith when doing another search. I found 2
3 Mar 1782 Wisdom Smith to Hannah Smith at Bletchingdon
12 Mar 1804 Wisdom Smith, gypsy, to Elizabeth Gentle, gypsy, at Shutford
Hope this may help. 
Sue
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Norris ( Somerset, Oxfordshire ) Evans ( Berkshire ) Goodenough ( Berkshire ) Lloyd ( Berkshire, Canada) Dance ( Berkshire, Portsea, USA, ) All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk |
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deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
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Hi Sue ..nice to see you!
Thanks for that ... Was that on Cathayb's scavenger Hunt ?
I wonder how many Wisdom Smiths there were? Brownetta Smith , s/o Barthwell Smith, who married Wisdom was b c 1794.
eekkkk so much to find ... LOL
Jo ... I love the hunt and , yes, they have gotten under my skin ...I am hoping I find my Penfolds/Orchards with them somewhere ... 
ded
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Wisdom Smith c.1763 Steeple Claydon
Married Hannah Smith 1782 Bletchington Ox.
They had Bethania in 1800 (married William Gray & James Mobbs)
Tabitha in 1803 (married William Gray)
Salome in 1807 (married William Smith)
Wisdom (married 1) Esther Smith in 1813 2) Maria Ellet (Elliot) in 1818 3) Amy Haywood in 1853.)
Salvino in 1798
Lissy b. 1793
Nathaniel in 1792 married Prudence
Eunice or Unity in 1791 married James Smith
Edward in 1786 married Sarah
and Robert in 1794 married Evening (Smith?)
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Next Gen
Wisdom Smith & Maria Had:
Wisdom 1818 married Hannah Smith b.1822 the daughter of William Smith and Ann Elliot
Hercules 1821
Offa (female) 1923
Maria 1826 married Riley Smith Birch
Abigail 1829 married William Newberry/Newborough
Matilda 1831
James Smith and Eunice/Unity had:
William b.1815 married Mausolina Heron/Hearn
Wisdom b.1812 married 1) Eliza Boswell (in 1831) and 2) Hannah Smith d/o Mendoza & Ann
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Next Generation
Wisdom Smith and Eliza Boswell had:
Wisdom Smith b.1934 married Priscilla Bagley.
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« Last Edit: Saturday 09 May 09 09:19 UTC (UK) by An65 »
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Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Hi everyone.
Babygirl101 kindly send me a copy of the newspaper report and yes Deb, that's the right family you found there on the census but reading the report I don't think it is Brownetta's family unfortunately.
It says the murder victim, Lucy wife of gypsy Charles Smith, was a native of Tetsworth, Oxfordshire and her maiden name was Austin. Charles Smith had several relatives in Oxfordshire, a sister at Marston, another at Headington Quarry "and a third, who is dead, was the wife of Mr Wisdom Smith of Barton near Headington" so I don't think that's Brownetta although I just g**gled the distance between Cold Higham and Headington and it is 38 miles.
If anyone, looking at what An65's just posted, it could be he is the brother of Hannah Smith d/o Mendoza & Ann as they look closest in birthdates. Charles Smith b1814 she c1812 maybe if she's similiar in age to her husband Wisdom born 1812. Just a guess... 
By the way, Albert is called "Prince Albert Smith" according to his sister who is named both Oceana and Oshey Smith in the report if its any help to anyone following this line.
It was a fascinating read whatever... thanks babygirl101
Chez
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hannah Smith w/o Wisdom and d/o Mendoza and Ann was c.1817 Boston
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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There are 2 Wisdoms associated with Headington Quarry Ox, according to the IGI.
Wisdom Smith married Priscilla Bagley there in 1860..... and their child, Wisdom c.1854 Charlton On Otmoor Ox, married Harriet Tolley there in 1875. This is assuming that the Wisdom of Charlton On Otmoor became associated with Headington Quarry....
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deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
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OMG An65
You have so much info ...how fabulous ....
Going back to the beginning of the thread ... I am wondering if Chez has ordered any birth certs of Henry/harry Smith b c 1842 ...
with him not having 'married' Dinah Ellen Gray (she being a spinster when marrying Francis elliot), we don't have a marriage cert. I still wonder if he didn't marry the Patchett girl .... will have to reread to find the marriage ref ... that cert may well be worth ordering.
deb
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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there are so many ppl trying to work out the wisdom smith line its unreal......... honest and even I cant work it all out...
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babygirl101
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 340
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi folks
Just thought i'd throw this snippet into the arena, I must admit I can't recall if I've posted it before or not heho! It's a newspaper article I came across about Wisdoms funeral:-
"The Prince of the Gypsies" The funeral of "The Prince of the Gypsies" - Wisdom Smith, aged 76, took place at Essendine, Rutland, on the 4th Inst. About one hundred of the wandering tribe were present at the ceremony, and a large concourse of peasantry from the adjacent villages also joined the burial train. The dark faced outcasts, in projecting this spectacle, were wiser in their generation than the simple rustics among whom they had pitched their tents; they secured a 'comfortable coffin' for their patriarch by assuring the joiner that the princes son was worth thousands and would come from the north to take the place of the chief mourner in the funeral obsequecies. The also duped other small trademen by telling them that the wealthy heir would pay for everything in a princely manner! Every man, woman and child, of the crafty race, had however disappeared like a mist before the morning succeeded the cermony and the tradesmen were unpaid".
Extract from The Lincolnshire Mercury 5th May 1839.
This ties in with the info on Free BMD giving Wisdoms death as June 1/4 1839, Stamford. Has anyone actually seen a copy of his death certificate I wonder?
BG
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Murden - Warwickshire & Nottinghamshire
Bower - Nottinghamshire (mainly Newark)
Crowder - Mansfield Nottinghamshire & Devon
Price - Newark, Nottinghamshire
Ingleton - Skillington, Lincolnshire
Smith - All parts of Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire & Lincolnshire especially Wisdom Smith, Robert & Evening Smith
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Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Hi
Deb, I've ordered Henry's/Harry's death certificate but am at a loss to where he was born. Eagle is one location mentioned, Carlton was another I think
I've looked on FreeBMD for possible births and for 1842 there are 2 at Boston, 2 Louth, 2 Derby, 1 Bourne, 1 Holbeach, 1 Newark so all within reasonable reach. I don't know which one to go for. Any ideas anyone If I could narrow it down a bit I don't mind ordering two or three to find the right one but the odds are a little high at the moment.
Chez
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mongojoby
RootsChat Member
Posts: 160
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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If I were going to start anywhere, Chez I'd start with the Louth ones- as it seems to have been on the route of travellers in the area.
However it were me, I wouldn't order any certificates yet, the common name, the changing birth locations (and ones that a sizable distance apart) and the unconfirmed age (the census returns seem to imply it is far from clear cut when he was born) make it a nightmere to identify him (similar to my problems tracking down Mary Ann Smith and I haven't touched a birth certificate yet).
You can't assume he was born in 1842 either- his date of death was 30th June, so IF he was 40 when he died there is an equal chance he was born in 1841.
Perhaps we we could try to eliminate some of the records, by looking for Henry Smith's of the right age living in that registration district, on later censuses? However with the details being as they are not sure how far that will get us.
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Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Hi
Thanks mongojoby. I didn't know Louth was on a "route" and that would have probably been one of the first I'd ignore going for maybe Newark or Boston first. so that's interesting.
I've just added 1841 to the equation and that adds another three Henrys born Louth (although I think 1 may be a duplicate). So that is 11 -possible 12 - to choose from. Although just rechecking while I write this - they were all in first 1/4 so maybe not him...
Going back to the route bit - was there a fairly common "route" up and down the country then? I've heard of the horse fairs and that Newark was quite central to these but was there a calendar that maybe dictated the families' movements through the year, as in hop picking in Kent, fruit picking in the Fens etc?
Chez
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mongojoby
RootsChat Member
Posts: 160
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Chez,
Sorry, wasn't meaning it come across as the air of authority, just my own opinion based on the ground Henry seems to have covered (as you say children being born there and also Dinah/ Ellen's second Ellet family popping up there on a couple of ocassions). I am sure Ann, will have a much better idea about routes.
Given the location of Newark, I'd presume that would also be a place vistied frequently by travellers, as would have thought they would go where the main roads were. It is for example the registration district where Barthwell, Charlotte and Sarah Smith are in 1861 (who we think have a connection with Henry). I couldn't see a Newark registration that fitted though, hence why I picked out the Louth ones.
Jo (sorry if you didn't recognise it was me, due to not signing off message!)
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Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Hi Jo
Yes, I see your logic for maybe Louth - ie son Fred b Horncastle thats near Louth isn't it, and I hadn't made the connection with Dinah's second marriage appearing there as that's come up recently. Seems a fairly common area for the family to have a base.
Chez
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