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Topic: Henry SMITH and Dinah Ellen GRAY (Read 3950 times)
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Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Hi An65.
Yes, I think we have spoken somewhere before - to one of you at least!! 
I'm in a bit of a mess but I've had some great help so far - Rosie and Deb are brilliant and then I remade contact with Jo too so this forum is certainly worth joining.
You've supplied a lot of names and info which I'll go through (it all looks a bit daunting but I'll write it out in tree form, I find it easier that way!).
One thing - if this turns out to be the same Henry Smith (who you mention someone else is researching and thinks is son of William and Ann Smith) if I've read it right, does that mean that Dinah/Ellen Gray married her uncle?
ie Henry could be a son of William and Ann Smith
and
William and Ann Smith had a daughter Maria Smith married Christopher Gray who had a daughter Dinah/Ellen?
and
Dinah/Ellen Gray married Henry Smith
I think they were both born 1842 according to one census, Henry was because it is on his grave, but I suppose with big families it might be possible might it? If Henry was born 1842 but he had an older sister Maria who married young then maybe she could have had a daughter born the same year as him.
Would this suggest my Henry is not the same Henry son of William and Ann?
Also - I have looked on the IGI and found Harriette Smith b13 May 1838 Quarrington, Lincs the daughter of Charlotte and Matthew Smith. Now on 1881 census Harriet Smith, wife of Abraham Gray was born 1839 Old Quarrington. Jo has just sent me, two days ago, (thanks to this forum)details of the death certificate of Charlotte Smith and Harriet is named as daughter present at death, so that seems to fit in OK doesn't it? Charlotte is buried in Kyme churchyard with Henry Smith and the Abraham Gray family (all lined up in a row).
Chez
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Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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Oh and in 1871 Henry (down as Harry) at Tuxford says he was born in Eagle, so that is a link with the other Charlotte you mention.
Ohh I'm getting dizzy 
Chez
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi An65.
One thing - if this turns out to be the same Henry Smith (who you mention someone else is researching and thinks is son of William and Ann Smith) if I've read it right, does that mean that Dinah/Ellen Gray married her uncle?
ie Henry could be a son of William and Ann Smith
and
William and Ann Smith had a daughter Maria Smith married Christopher Gray who had a daughter Dinah/Ellen?
and
Dinah/Ellen Gray married Henry Smith
Also - I have looked on the IGI and found Harriette Smith b13 May 1838 Quarrington, Lincs the daughter of Charlotte and Matthew Smith. Now on 1881 census Harriet Smith, wife of Abraham Gray was born 1839 Old Quarrington. Jo has just sent me, two days ago, (thanks to this forum)details of the death certificate of Charlotte Smith and Harriet is named as daughter present at death, so that seems to fit in OK doesn't it? Charlotte is buried in Kyme churchyard with Henry Smith and the Abraham Gray family (all lined up in a row).
Chez
Yes that is correct - that hypothesis is that Dinah married her uncle Henry. Maria Smith was born in 1817 at Willoughby On The Wolds, Notts, and married Christopher in 1836 at Rauceby Lincs.
As for Charlotte and Matthew aka Bathwell, Im pretty sure that is accurate as well.
you also mentioned:
"Oh and in 1871 Henry (down as Harry) at Tuxford says he was born in Eagle, so that is a link with the other Charlotte you mention."
You have to remember most Romanies dont know where they were born so would hazard a guess. It also depends on what the enumerator asked them. There is all the difference in the world between "where were you born" and "where are you from".
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mongojoby
RootsChat Member
Posts: 160
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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An65, do you have any idea what kind of evidence there is that his Henry was the son of William and Ann Smith, as
all the stuff that has come out on here all seems to point to Henry being the daughter of Charlotte Smith?
Aside from his children frequently being found with Abraham and Harriet (Smith) Gray's immediate family (which surely suggests a closer relationship then the much more distant one Henry would have with them if he was the son William and Ann), I think Rosie's find that names three of his sons as nephews of a Sarah Smith, 'born' Scredington around the same age as Barthwell and Charlotte's daughter provides pretty strong evidence.
Out of interest, would it have been acceptable for a gypsy woman to take more then one partner? I'd kind of assumed that, that would be the prerogative of men only, and it would make a nice change to see women being treated equally in the past!
Regards, Jo
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Back in those times yes, it was extremely common.
I agree it seems more likely Henry belongs with Bathwells family, and as far as I know there is no direct evidence to suggest otherwise.
I do think there is a strong link between Bathwell and William Smith as well mind you. Just cant prove it (yet).
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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regarding polygamy:
three of the daughters of No Name Heron - Millia, Eliza and Uri demonstrate this:
Millia married Pyramus Gray and stayed with him for life.
Eliza married first Jack (John Budd) Gray (brother of Pyramus) and later Oseri Gray his cousin.
Uri married first the same Jack Gray and later Leonard Printall.
Jack (John Budd) Gray was married many times, to Uri and Eliza, and also to Maria Boswell AND her daughter Harriet Williams, and lived out his days after transportation with one Frances Dowlen.
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Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
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HI
Just going back to Deb's suggestion that maybe the reason I couldn't find Fred's birth with Henry and Ellen as parents was because Henry had been married before - well I went on FreeReg last night and tried to find the children of Henry and Ellen. (I'd heard the site has been updated over the bank holiday weekend so I thought I'd try again. You can imagine the numbers involved for SMITH !). I narrowed it down to just Henry as father.
Anyway, had trouble finding most of them BUT don't know if this is relevant or if I'm going completely off the rails - of the two I did find within reasonable dates were these:
Charles Frederick Smith bpt Feb 1863, Christ Church, Radford, Notts, son of Henry Smith and Ann Stuart. Their abode Park Side, Radford, Notts, Father's occupation Lace merchant
and
Charlotte Smith bpt May 1868, St Mary's, Newark, daughter of Henry and Ann Smith. Their abode Water La?? (Lane?) Newark. Father's occupation labourer.
and just to confuse matters more there was a Harriette Smith within her dates d/o Henry Charles Smith and Mary Allen in George St Radford. He was a shoe manufacturer.
So to confirm or eliminate I now think I need to know what sort of area Park Side Radford was in the 1860s - ie an actual road or land. Also would lace merchant be a traveller's job does anyone know, or would it be shop based - and in Newark, Water Lane?... and my henry later was selling tinware which is a bit different to lace.
What do you think? Coincidence ? 
Chez
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deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
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hi Edwina
Ummmm .... what if Henry and Dinah didn't marry til later? (still looking for the elusive marriage  )
I have found this birth;
Frederick Grey sept q 1864 Horncastle vol 7a p 487
deb 
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
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deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
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Hi
An extracted IGI entry
Christopher Smith s/o Henry and Ellen
07 JUL 1874 North And South Hykeham, Lincoln
this could be the reg;
Christopher Smith sept q 1874 Lincoln
vol 7a p 478
deb
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
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deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
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Frederick 1862 Horncastle m Annie LUESBY b Donnington (my gt grandparents later lived Great Hale, nr Sleaford)
Barthwell/Bartholomew 1867 Belton Forest (m) Eliza Ann THURLBY . He was known as Uncle Barthy to my grandmother and her sisters and he died 1923 at Donington but that's all I know of him.
Hi I wonder if his marriage cert may help with names...
Bartholomew Smith June q 1900 Spalding Lincolnshire
Eliza Thurlby 1900 Jyne q Spalding Lincolnshire
vol 7a p 836
1901
Donington, Church Street
Bartholomew Smith head mar 30 ag lab b Stamford Rutland
Eliza Ann wife 19 b Lincolnshire, Ostourby?
Alice may dau 7 months b Donington
Christopher Smith brother Single 24 ag lab b North Hykeham
ummmm .... where is Barthy in 1891?
deb
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The Baptism of Christopher Smith s/o Henry & Ellen is extremely interesting, because my Grt Grandad Ambrose Grays birth certificate states he was born in Nth Hykeham on 1873.
Ambrose was the grandson of Christopher Gray and Maria Smith.
Furthermore, Christopher Gray died in 1869, which could be a clue as to the name the parents chose.....
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Bertha Smith d/o Henry & Ellen bapt 13,06.1866 Billingborough Lincs (IGI)
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deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
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hi
An65 ... Will see if I can spot more.
I wonder if this is Barthy in 1891 ....
High street, Sleaford, Huckington
Felix Gray mar 48 horse dealer and publican b Lincs Navenby
Lydia gray wife 46 b Bourne
Thomas Gray son 22 horse dealer and groom b Bourne Lincs
Lydia Beeton? Weeton 12 niece b Moulton Chapel
Kate beeton 10 niece b Great Hale
Kate Kine? 16 General Servant b South Kyme
BARTLEY SMITH 27 servant ostler groom b Lincoln
deb
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
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An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Poss I guess - thats Phoenix Gray married Lydia Newberry.
Modification here:
I should add that Phoenix Gray was s/o Charles Gray and Lydia Elliott, and BROTHER of Abraham Gray who married Harriet (Traynett) Smith the d/o Matthew aka Bathwell and Charlotte.
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deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
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OMG ... so confusing ...
I wonder if Barthwell Smith (186?) was registered as Matthew?
I need to reread again ...
deb
added ...still need to find Dinah who remarried to ??Elliott in the 1891 census , I think
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Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
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