Author
|
Topic: Henry SMITH and Dinah Ellen GRAY (Read 3975 times)
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hi Rosie and Deb and nice to make contact with you again Jo.
Thanks ever so for all this help. I'm getting a better idea how the family is spread around now with the uncles and aunts looking after the children. And with Harriet Gray named as the daughter on Charlotte's death certificate that is that link proved and crossed off the list 
Also with Deb finding Dinah single in 1861 and gt Grandad Fred Smith being born 1862 it really cuts down the marriage date doesn't it. I have tried to find a birth certificate for Fred (and Henry) on FreeBMD as Fred's birthday was August 2nd, but haven't so far, and tonight, with these new shorter dates for a marriage, I just tried to narrow it down and find that but it doesn't bring up anything either. I'm surprised actually. I would have thought the names would be fairly common...
There is a possible marriage for Henry Smith at Horncastle Sept 1/4 1861 but the possible brides don't match - although by coincidence one of them is a Patchett who is also in my line but as far as I know no way connected to this side.
It goes on...
Many thanks, Chezp
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
|
Hi
I was just wondering if there could be a possibility that Henry Smith did marry Harriet Patchett and have Fred , as there is a gap in ages ...fred =1862 and Barthy= 1867.
re ; Fred 1862 .... In 1881 he is 17 = b 1864 and in 1871 he is 5 =b 1866 
there are a few birth reg for these years , this is the only one for Hornacstle though;
Fred Smith Mar q 1864 Horncastle Lincolnshire
still looking for them in earlier censuses
deb 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
|
|
|
mongojoby
RootsChat Member
Posts: 160
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Deb,
It is no doubt a possibility that Henry could have been married before, however I don't think the gaps are clear cut. As well as Fred having various dates of birth on censuses Barthy appear to range from 1864 to 1871. Also don't forget there is the brother at Fred's funeral (Mr E Smith), who does not appear with the family on the returns but must fit in somewhere.
Jo
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
rosie99
RootsChat Aristocrat
Posts: 1930
|
Hi
Were Christopher, Bertie and Thomas at the funeral or could the E Smith be one of them but an error with the initial?
Rosie
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
|
hi all
from page 1;
"another sister Mary Ann b1848 Eagle (d/o Barkwell and Charlotte Smith) married to John Gray? A fellow researcher told me Mary Ann Smith was married to John Coy of South Kyme and then Thomas Carter but I'm wondering if this is a misread and John Coy is actually John Gray. It makes sense with the niece being Clara Carter . . . doesn't it?? "
In 1871;
North Kyme
Mary Ann COY head wid 22 charwoman b Braceby
Betsey dau 2 b North Kyme
CHARLOTTE SMITH visitor wid 67 general hawker b Weedon Barracks Cambridgeshire
so it looks like Jo was correct
deb
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
|
|
|
deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
|
In 1881
Mary Ann ( 42 b Eagle) is def married to Thomas Carter, waggoner living in Mareham Le Fen, Lincolnshire
They have children ;
Betsy Carter, 12...she must be Betsey COY
John 7
William 5
Harriot 2
Lucy Ann 1
Birth reg;
Betsy Coy Jun q 1868 Sleaford
Marriages;
John Coy Jun q 1867 Sleaford = Mary Ann Smith Junq 1867 Sleaford
Mary Ann Coy Mar q 1872 Sleaford = Thomas Carter Mar q 1872 Sleaford
deb
added ..in 1891 Tom and Mary Ann have other children;
William 15
Lucy 11
Annie 9
mary Ann and Thomas Henry 7
Charles 4
I wonder who Clara Carter belongs to?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
|
|
|
mongojoby
RootsChat Member
Posts: 160
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Deb,
With regards to the weddings, a third cousin of mine (contact through internet) has seen the parish records and the witnesses to her marriage to John Coy are Besty Donson and Sarah Lockey and I have a copy of her marriage to Thomas Carter (witnesses his sister, Lucy Carter and her future husband, Timothy Martin). In both cases her father is named as Barkwell Smith (deceased). For her first marriage his profession is given as basket maker, second marriage it is horse dealer. Combined with Charlotte Smith visting her in 1871 (which was just after John Coy died), these have been the only potential parents I can find.
Unfortunatly as Mary Ann Smith is such a common name, date/place of birth are unclear and she cannot be found named as related to either of them on any census returns it has not been something I have been able to prove.
Sorry I should have told you all the information I had about Mary Ann Smith to clarify my position, I was just a bit worried about going off-topic from the thread. The details back to her I am relatively certain of (as much as you can be anyway), since the source is from my g-grandmother's own copy of her birth certificate, in which her mother is named as Mary Ann Carter (late Coy, previously Smith).
Regards
Jo
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
|
hi
re; ' His younger brother Christopher is on the 1891 census as nephew of horse dealer John Gray and wife Mary living North Kyme who I believe is Abraham's older brother. There is also a niece Clara Carter."
Okay I have found this marriage which would make sense having Clara, the niece , with them;
Mary Ann Carter = John Gray
Dec 1883 Sleaford
In 1881;
North Kyme
Elizabeth Carter head wid 62 dressmaker
MARY ANN dau unm 22 dressmaker
Jane Carter gr dau 8
CLARA Carter gr dau 6
all born North Kyme
I wonder if Thomas Carter and Mary Ann are siblings?
deb
just seen your post Jo ....will read
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
|
|
|
mongojoby
RootsChat Member
Posts: 160
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Deb,
If you have a look at my first post, it probably isn't very clear but Mary Ann Carter's relationship to Thomas would I think effectively be half-aunt. The Elizabeth Carter in your post is the second wife of Thomas' Grandad who was also called Thomas.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
|
Hi Jo
So sorry ...I went back to page 1 and reread Cheryl's first 2 posts ..should have read a bit further. 
deb
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hi, you've all been so busy!! I feel guilty going out
I'm going to put another spanner in the works now 
So I could check which of Fred's siblings were at his funeral, I got the report out and then noticed it says in the second paragraph
"The deceased, who was a native of Lincoln, had resided in the parish for 19 years ..." and also " coffin bore the inscription Frederick Smith died October 2nd, 1928 aged 66 years."
The parish would be Great Hale, near Heckington/N&S Kyme but would the Horncastle he states on the census as his birthplace be classed as
Lincoln as in Lincolnshire the county or do you think it means Lincoln the city?
So, mourners in 1928 were:
Mrs F Smith, (widow) that's Annie nee Luesby of Donington;
Mrs B Hand of Grantham (sister) that's Harriet Smith wife of Herbert /Bertie Hand, son Montague ;
Miss Smith, Metheringham (sister); Must be Charlotte as I've just gone through my file and I have a Constance Smith died 1926
Mr E Smith and Mr T Smith, Donington (brothers); one must be Thomas
Mrs W Smith, Donington, (sister-in-law) - don't know
- so that gives us Harriet, Thomas, Charlotte but no Barthy or Christopher unless Mrs W Smith of Donington is a widow and using her own Christian name? It can't be Barthy's wife as Gt Uncle Barthy married Eliza Ann Thurlby and had a daughter Alice May Smith born 1901 Donington, so maybe Mrs W Smith is Christopher's widow?
I can see Fred's birth dates vary don't they from census to census. . I just don't know which certificate to order. Perhaps one of his brothers or sister might be a better bet (if they are regular dates of course 
I have Fred's wedding certificate, Donington 1897 Frederick Smith residence Donington, father Henry Smith deceased, labourer. Witnesses Christopher Smith Surely Fred's brother? and Hillary Richardson (no idea who he/she is, no link on the Luesby side so could be just a friend?). Fred's signiature mark was witnessed by the vicar.
Have I helped? Doubt it!
Chez
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
|
Hi again
Your Smiths are as bad as my Penfolds ... hiding in certain censuses
Have you found Dinah Ellen with children (most probably Thomas and Harriet) in 1891?
Also, when did she marry Francis Elliott?
deb
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hi Deb.
No I haven't found any further link to Dinah/Ellen in 1891 census. Certainly not as Smith . They seem to disappear.
i've found on website seraphin-angel website she has Dinah/Ellen widow of Henry Smith married FRancis Elliott m 1883. That's a year after henry;s death. Didn't think to look for them under Elliott.
Chez
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Been offline AGES so glad to be back, and what a lovely suprise to see this thread.
Chez I think you and I have chatted before about this, Im Panderoona aka Seraphim Angel.
Now another person tracing these Smiths believes that Henry was a son of William And Ann Smith which would make him one of my Smiths, as my ancesters were Christopher Gray and Maria Smith (who was d/o William Smith and Ann nee Elliott).
Bathwell Smith was baptised at Cold Higham (near Grimscote Nthants) 21.06.1790 s/o Thomas & Nancy, according to Terence Lees book.
Wife Charlotte was born cir 1804 Weedon Nthants. Now she according to the old folklore married a Matthew Smith - possibly the same person as Bathwell, possibly someone else.
Now I tracked down Matthew Smiths marriage to Charlotte Elliott:
m.12.09.1831 Loughborough Nthants, Matthew had previously been married to Eleanor Smith who was buried at Wigston Two Steeples. He married Eleanor 05.02.1816 also at Loughborough.
Now according to the old folklore, Matthew Smith was one of the sons of Jim Smith of Buckminster who was married to one Seperata Boss. Another child was William Smith who married Ann Elliott and produced Maria who married Chris Gray.
William Smith and Ann (Elliott) both spent their latter years at the Wong, Horncastle, and both were buried at Horncastle in the 1870s.
One would expect to find Charlotte Elliott who married Bathwell/Matthew Smith to be related to the Elliotts of Willoughby, Notts which produced Ann Elliott. But I havent found a link yet.
For sure, Dinah/Ellen Gray was Christopher and Marias daughter. Christopher was killed in 1869 at Wrawby by Brigg after being hit by a runaway horse and gig during Brigg Fair. His wife Maria was buried in 1875 at Heckington.
All this family appear to have ties to the horse trade, indeed my 2xgrt and 1xgrt grandparents had a stables located in Frieston Road, Boston (Lincs).
Now Abraham Gray was son of Charles Gray and Lydia Elliott who was definatley of the Elliott of Willoughby Notts family, making her close kin to Maria Smith.
This Charles Gray was the son of Charles and Charlotte. And I have lately found trace of a marriage:
An extract of a marriage dated 28.05.1804 at St James, Bristol, was copied to Meldreth, Cam in 1830 - the marriage of Charles Gray and Charlotte Hirss.
(what her real surname was I havent worked out yet but thats almost certainly innaccurate).
All of this lends credence to Christopher Gray being close kin of Charles (the elder). His baptism records him as being of Thurlby By Bourne in 1815, s/o Thomas and Charlotte. I find no other trace of a Thomas and Charlotte romany baptism and I am beginning to think it should read Charles....
Of course it could be that one Thomas Gray did briefly liase with the same Charlotte - and there are two candidates for that. Both of those confusingly appear to be sons of Fowk Gray, one being bapt in 1772 and the other in 1798... Still trying to fathom them out!!
Hope this answers a few queries though.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
PS another source gives Charlotte as w/o Matthew Smith and she is a Boiling/Boyling/Boylen.
IGI shows up Charlotte Boylen, d/o George & Franette c.26.05.1811 Eagle Lincs.
This makes her d/o George Boyling who married Tranette/Franette/Trinity Boswell, and GEORGE later marrying Joyce Tansey/Tanzy/Tansy.
George and Joyce settled at Nettleham Lincs, he dying in 1873 and she in 1885. George is a presumed (and reputed) son of Caesar Boyling.
Caesar Boyling (var) married 1 Mary Royston 1768 Boston Lincs and 2 Sarah Smith 1780 Wrawby (by Brigg) Lincs.
Caesar known to have had by Mary:
Sam (1769 Boston) Tom (1775 Coventry) Ambrose (1777) Coventry and by Sarah:
John b.cir 1781 Wolverhampton and Sarah c.1784 Spalding who married Zachariah Boswell in 1809 Kirton In Lindsay.
By Joyce Tansey George is known to have had Salome Ellen Boyling c.1823 Scampton Lin who married William Gray c.1822 Ancaster s/o Wm Gray who married Tabitha Smith.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
