Author
|
Topic: Henry SMITH and Dinah Ellen GRAY (Read 3974 times)
|
An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Well now, looking at the map one cant help but notice several groups of stopping places
To the south of Grantham, there is Skillington, and Castle Bytham, on the road towards Bourne. Moving northwards to Sleaford, we find Scredington, Ancaster, and Heckington
Moving north of Sleaford we find Leasingham, Kyme, Billinghay, Navenby, Metheringham, Coleby, Harmston, Dunston and Potterhanworth, Hykeham, Branston and Eagle as we get close to Lincoln.
North of Lincoln we find North and South Carlton, Burton, Springthorpe, Scampton, Corringham, Blyborough, on the road to Scarborough.
If we go back to Lincoln and move north east towards Market Rasen we find, Nettleham, Langworth and Lissington.
If we were to assume that the travel north of Lincoln was making a route to Brigg fair, and returning south by the other route, that would make sense. A popular stopping place with a lot of Romany baptisms is Wrawby a village by Brigg.
To the east of Wrawby is Melton Ross. Moving north again towards the Humber estuary we find Caistor, Winteringham Wootton and South Ferriby. Louth actually remains rather isolated to the right of Market Rasen.
South of Rasen we find Horncastle, once known for its Horse fair. In the vicinity we find Ashby, a village known for Romany settlement, like Kyme.
Directly south of Horncastle, is the hamlet of Brothertoft, near Boston (another town known for its romany settlement). to the west of Boston we find Kyme and Heckington..... on our way back to Sleaford.
If you follow the map you can see the routes they took, most likely moving into Leics and Nottingham through Mowbray and Newark along the way.
Regardless of surname, all the places mentioned have at least one romany baptism/marriage known to me.....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hi An65.
Thank you for the stopping places. That makes all the various birthplaces much clearer - I can associate with so many villages you mention and most of them seem along one or two of these main thoroughfares.
I'll have look on the map. I'm wondering if I marked various birthplaces and dates whether a route would emerge. It might help me pinpoint a missing baptism for Henry's children who don't seem to be where they should be. It's worth a go anyway.
Thanks
Chez
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
mongojoby
RootsChat Member
Posts: 160
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Really interesting stuff Ann, thanks for the description
Do you have any idea why North Kyme would have become a stopping place? I visited it earlier this year, and it seems an increbibly small place and didn't strike me as an obvious place to end up.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
I dont really know. There are many small villages on that list. Brothertoft is a place I know well, my father lived there as a kid, and he can remember the romanies coming each year knife sharpening, peg selling etc. They were providing a service for the villagers, most likely whilst enroute to a larger town/fair. One thing they never did was wander aimlessly. Why they chose particular places to settle I couldnt say, beyond the fact that they most likely liked certain places, found a trade they could use in the village, and/or were received well by the locals.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
babygirl101
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 340
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Wisdom Smith c.1763 Steeple Claydon s/o Cain Smith
Married Hannah Smith 1782 Bletchington Ox.
They had Bethania in 1800 (married James Gray aka Mobbs)
Tabitha in 1803 (married William Gray)
Salome in 1807 (married William Smith)
Wisdom (married 1) (reputedly) Brownetta Smith, 2) Esther Smith in 1813 3) Maria Ellet (Elliot) in 1818 4) Amy Haywood in 1853.)
Salvino in 1798
Lissy/Nessy b. and died 1795
Nathaniel in 1792 married Prudence
Eunice or Unity in 1791 married James Smith
Edward in 1786 married Sarah
Absalom d.1783
and Robert in 1794 married Evening (Smith?)
-------------
Next Gen
Wisdom Smith & Maria Had:
Wisdom 1818 married Hannah Smith b.1822 the daughter of William Smith and Ann Elliot
Hercules 1821
Offa (female) 1923
Maria 1826 married Riley Smith Birch
Abigail 1829 married William Newberry/Newborough
Matilda 1831
James Smith and Eunice/Unity had:
William b.1815 married Mausolina Heron/Hearn
Wisdom b.1812 married 1) Eliza Boswell (in 1831) and 2) Hannah Smith d/o Mendoza & Ann
-----------
Next Generation
Wisdom Smith and Eliza Boswell had:
Wisdom Smith b.1934 married Priscilla Bagley.
Ann
I've just noticed that you've got Wisdom married to Amy Haywood in 1853, this marriage was confirmed as below:-
There was a marriage between an Amy Haywood in 1853, as it was reported in the Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Tuesday, September 13, 1853; Issue 2536:-
"The marriage took place on Sept 5, at the Abbey Church, Bourn, by the Rev. Walter Scott, Wisdom Smith to Amy Haywood. Both parties are gipsies, and, notwithstanding their advanced age, they tripped it gaily on "the light fantastic toe" to the fiddle and the tambourine. The buxom bride is in her 66th year, and she is the third wife Wisdom has led from the altar".
BG
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Murden - Warwickshire & Nottinghamshire
Bower - Nottinghamshire (mainly Newark)
Crowder - Mansfield Nottinghamshire & Devon
Price - Newark, Nottinghamshire
Ingleton - Skillington, Lincolnshire
Smith - All parts of Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire & Lincolnshire especially Wisdom Smith, Robert & Evening Smith
|
|
|
deb usa
RootsChat Marquessate
Posts: 6447
the Waterfield girls ..all 7 of them!
|
hi everyone
I have nothing new to add except I saw this thread and thought someone may be interested ;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,326068.0.html
It's about old photos available on ebay; This one caught my attention;
Smith
Gypsy Smith, Wife, and Daughter. Photo Post Card.
Item number: 160279172685
deb
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton, Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hello everyone, sorry I couldn't be online for a while.
Like Mongojoby I too thought North Kyme a strange place to stop off - it is so quiet, a tiny village really, and yet so many Gray and Smith have links with it. The line up of Gray crosses in the graveyard is impressive - they are quite ornate, all side by side, I have a photo of them if anyone wants a copy emailed.
Info like this really helps see the fuller picture when you realise how things were in those days. Thank you An65.
NOW... Don't know if this is good news or bad news...
Henry Smith's death certificate arrived today. He died North Kyme. No other address. 40 years old in June 1882. Horse dealer and informant of death was " the mark of Ellen Smith, widow of deceased, present at the death, North Kyme" so there it is, Henry and Ellen were married. So how she was a spinster later on ....
Chez
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Well, the thing is, she said she was his widow (as in we were married) and she later said she was a spinster....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Sent this once = error message so if you get it twice sorry.
Yes, Ellen seems a woman who couldn't quite make up her mind up whether she was married or not. ( and I thought I was bad shopping!)
I think she was described as the widow of Henry Smith when she married Francis Ellott ( An65 can you help here? )
Personally, from what we've got here, I am not sure they were married. Ok the census gives Smith surnames to the children (which they carry on as nephews etc) but I am wondering if they may have originally been baptised as GRAY ? Which might explain why I can't find any of their baptisms.
But... if Ellen was Henry's "widow " present at his death in 1882 and then said she was Henry Smith's "widow" when she married Francis Elliot in 1883 - what benefit would she have gained being a 41 year old widow against a spinster?
Any help gratefully received! 
Chez
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hi Jo
Have sent Gray grave pics off to you.
Chez
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
would like them too Chez -
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: Friday 14 November 08 17:00 UTC (UK) by admin07 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hi An65
Least I can do for all your help. Thank you.
Chez
PS, any idea where I can try for getting in touch with any of Fred's siblings descendants? I can't seem to find them.
I've put a couple of messages on the LIncs FHS page but nothing back. Do you know of any other websites? I've just subscribed to the Romany and Traveller FHS but the lady advised me to wait till Oct when their new year subscriptions started so I wouldn't miss out - when I subscribed I also bought 3 of the older Romany Routes back issue magazines. They came last week. Full of information. If anyone is thinking of joining I would recommend it for the magazines alone.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
An65
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 452
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Well I have written a few articles in past Romany Routes (Romany & Traveller FHS Journal) which you might enjoy.
Its a great site and a great place to find other family members.
Now the Elliots....... let me see....
there was
James b.1831 either Grantham or Folkingham m.Charlotte
Samuel b.1834 Little Steeping m.Margaret
Charlotte b.early 1830s Wyberton (near Boston)
Joseph b.1837 Candlesby m.Eliza Gray
Sarah b.1839 Nottingham
Julia b.1839 Timberland
Arnold b.1842 Broxholme m.Selina Clayton
Jemima b.1846 Barwell Leic
Harriet b.1849 Billingborough supposedly m.Henry Clarke
Christopher b.1851 Potterhanworth.
All were issue of Edward Elliot and Martha Smith.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Chezp
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 34
|
Hi An65
Yes, I was really impressed by the Romany Routes magazines.
I can now see that Dinah Ellen Gray stayed with travelling families after Henry's death when she "married" Francis Elliott in 1883 but what happened to her children?
I'm curious to what contact she had with her children as some of the census we've covered here suggest she was apart from them and they stayed with their Gray uncles/aunts while she and Henry Smith were still "Married" ... but obviously the census after 1901 can't help.
I have family story and some past contact with the Grays and Smiths settled there in Great Hale, nr Heckington , Sleaford, at The Laurels where the Gray family lived c1910 onwards, plus the Smith/Gray graves at North Kyme.
It looks as if Henry Smith's sister Harriet , wife of Abraham Gray, played a big part in Henry , his mother Charlotte and his son Frederick Smith's life, but the other Smiths seem to have moved away. Metheringham is one village mentioned.
I've lost almost all trace of Christopher, Sarah and even Fredericks's siblings, apart from the sister Harriet married Herbert Hand family (think mentioned earlier - son Montague and that ends in n1901 census)
And, while I've got my gt grandfather Henry Smith's grave at North Kyme, I've no idea at all where my gt grandmother Dinah Ellen Gray/Smith/Elliott is buried... not even the county - Lincs, Cambs, Notts?
Chez
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Debulah
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 22
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
|
Hi Chezp,
I am relatively new to this, and have only recently started to research the Romany side of my family (Gray), having had little factual information, only folk history from my fathers side of the family. I have found through the census that my great great grandfather was Abraham Gray (1854-6) married to Martha Smith (1856) and that his father was Christopher Gray (1815-1869) married to Maria Smith (1817). I have found several of the links through census of his siblings, and followed it back to Thomas and Elizabeth through others researching Grays/Smiths/Elliotts. I noticed you have many a thing about this side of my family, and as I knew nothing, including my great grandad Henry Grays birth date... which I now know to be 1891, (and that they were in Easton on the Hill, Stamford, Lincolnshire in 1911, were he married my great grandmother Eveline (Evelyn) Exton), was wondering if you would share your photo's, information etc with me.
This is a side of the family that has kind of gone hidden for too many years and I now believe should be celebrated, so would very much appreciate your help.
Debulah.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
