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Author Topic: Offer:Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990  (Read 74938 times)

Offline jontyb

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 10 September 08 21:01 BST (UK) »
Does anyone have a copy of John (PJH) Tebay's "List of Pilots - 1734 to 1990" or know how I can get access to copy. My Great Great Grandfather - Capt John Williams was thought to be a Master Mariner and River Pilot. He was born around 1791 and married in Liverpool in 1811 so I assume he was a Liverpool Pilot sometime during the early part of the 1800's. I would like to find out if there is any mention of him in the book which may open a few more doors and assist in further research.

Regards,
John.

Offline davecigar

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 11 September 08 00:11 BST (UK) »
Hi
Patience would have helped!
There are supposedly ten entries for John Williams but only eight listed in the book. The reason I say this is because all entries with the same surname and christian name have a roman numeral next to the name, in this case (III) to (X). On the previous page the last entry is for David Williams, but no mention of JW (I) and (II).
The 1st entry for JW (III) shows him licenced in 1832 and as they are in date order, all the other JW's are at a later date.
As the Liverpool Pilot Service is unlike any other in the UK, they operate an apprenticeship system,  your JW would have had to join the Service in 1806/7 and probably be licenced about 1811/12, which is feasible, but he could not have been a Master Mariner as well as a Liverpool Pilot.
I have looked in the 'History of the Liverpool Pilot Service' by John S Rees and there is an entry for a JW as one of the first licenced Pilots in the Port of Liverpool in 1766, but this is too early for your JW. Unfortunately there were no further lists of Pilots between then and 1832.
The only record available for further research is the 'Pilot Character Book' to be found at the Liverpool Maritime Museum, Albert Dock, Liverpool, where there is a page for each Pilot since 1766.
And there was you thinking it was just a simple 'look up'! Mind you with a name like Williams, nothing is simple.
Hope this is of some help
Dave
Cockram/Williams - Poole/Wareham, Dorset
Evans - Corwen
Dodd - New Ferry/Malpas
Jones/Williams - Caernarfon/Anglesey
Bristowe - Bratton, Wiltshire
Wells - Bath, Somerset
Fishwick/Lewis - Liverpool
Nicholson/Tennant - Ecclefechan, Dumfrieshire


Offline jontyb

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 11 September 08 09:23 BST (UK) »
Thanks very much for the information on John Williams and sorry for appearing a bit impatient. I am new to this form of messaging and wasn't sure if I was making my request to the right person.

At the time of his marriage in 1921 records described him as a Master Mariner, so it could be that he became a pilot around the time of JW III (1832) assuming there wasn't a limit on age, as he would have been about 41 years old. Hopefully, I should be able to get to Liverpool Maritime Museum in the next two weeks to check it out. I presume you don't need an appointment to look at the archives.

Thanks again for your help.
John.

Offline davecigar

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 11 September 08 10:06 BST (UK) »
Hi John
Sorry, there WAS a limit on age. Maybe I didn't explain the situation correctly but if they weren't indentured as an Apprentice Liverpool Pilot in their 'teens (usally about 16) then there was no chance of becoming a Pilot. He could have been a Pilot in another Port, but not Liverpool.
This was why I said he could not have been a Master Mariner AND a Liverpool Pilot.
My knowledge is gained from 40 years as a Liverpool Pilot being the 4th generation from my family dating back to 1847.
No, you don't need an appointment for the Maritime Museum but I'd check the opening times. Only pencils are allowed for notes.
My advice would be to look backwards from 1832 otherwise you could spend a considerable amount of time there.
Best of luck
Dave
Cockram/Williams - Poole/Wareham, Dorset
Evans - Corwen
Dodd - New Ferry/Malpas
Jones/Williams - Caernarfon/Anglesey
Bristowe - Bratton, Wiltshire
Wells - Bath, Somerset
Fishwick/Lewis - Liverpool
Nicholson/Tennant - Ecclefechan, Dumfrieshire

Offline jontyb

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 11 September 08 10:59 BST (UK) »
Hi Dave,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and thanks for the advice.

Cheers,
John.

Offline davecigar

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 11 September 08 21:48 BST (UK) »
Hi again John,
I have found the missing entries in another publication, in fact it's the whole page that was missig. It's in 'Beyond the Bar' by Barrie Youde, another retired pilot of similar vintage.
JW (I) As previously intimated - Licenced in 1766 but no further details.
JW (II) First licenced 1819 - Retired 1855 - Died 1857. He looks a possibility, being licenced at the age of 28, but does his death date fit in with what you know about him?
At least it will save you a visit to MMM, unless he's your man when his complete pilotage record will be in the 'Pilot Character Book'.
Regards
Dave
Cockram/Williams - Poole/Wareham, Dorset
Evans - Corwen
Dodd - New Ferry/Malpas
Jones/Williams - Caernarfon/Anglesey
Bristowe - Bratton, Wiltshire
Wells - Bath, Somerset
Fishwick/Lewis - Liverpool
Nicholson/Tennant - Ecclefechan, Dumfrieshire

Offline jontyb

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #15 on: Friday 12 September 08 14:22 BST (UK) »
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info, but not sure if he's a fit. According to the 1841 census John Williams was born circa 1791 outside of the county of Lancaster. He married his first wife in Liverpool in 1811 and some time later married a second time (1841 census), although we have not been able to find a record of the marriage. According to the 1851 census his second wife was recorded as a widow although his name appears on the marriage certificate of his eldest daughter on 15th December 1851. As you have said "Williams is a common name". Probably I should check out JWII in the Maritime Museum even if to just eliminate him from my list.

Thanks very much for you help it's been extremely useful.

Regards,
John.

Offline Willyboy783

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 13 September 08 13:20 BST (UK) »
Hi,

I am searching for any info on John Green who was a Master Mariner somewhere between  1900 and 1935  sailing out of Liverpool or maybe Fleetwood. He is believed to have been the captain of the SS Voges and the SS Lormont during WW1 on voyages between Liverpool and Bordeaux. Any info would be much appreciated

thanks

Offline davecigar

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 14 September 08 07:53 BST (UK) »
Hi Willy
Sorry, can't help.
He's not on the list of Liverpool Pilots.
Dave
Cockram/Williams - Poole/Wareham, Dorset
Evans - Corwen
Dodd - New Ferry/Malpas
Jones/Williams - Caernarfon/Anglesey
Bristowe - Bratton, Wiltshire
Wells - Bath, Somerset
Fishwick/Lewis - Liverpool
Nicholson/Tennant - Ecclefechan, Dumfrieshire