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Topic: Turner/Emery (Read 4018 times)
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Dozey_Joy
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 29
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Rob
That's alright. At least I know I wasn't missing something obvious. When I get chance I'll check the register for St Chads Stafford but I don't know when I'll get to the records office again.
Joy
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Thanks for the offer to still look it up Joy however it is in the wrong parish and the wrong timeframe. It was only the names that seemed to fit which is why I wrote it down.
If only I could find a list of Lawyers of that time frame in Staffordshire I might just bump into potter Johns fathers true identity.
Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Thank you Crystal for your PM and the transcriptions of the marriage licenses for our known 3 marriages in Brewood.
John Turners marriage license simply confirms what we already knew however the marriage of Henry is a totally different story because I presumed he was a brother... obviously he is not.
Henry Turner-Transcription of The Oath Made By Henry Turner
20 December 1757
On this day appeared personally before me Henry Turner of the Parish of Castle Church in the County of Stafford Gentleman aged forty years and a widower and intends to marry Prudence Sutton of the Parish of St Mary Stafford aged thirty years and a widow
Signed Henry Turner before Joseph Dickenson’’
This reveals firstly that he was older than I expected. 40 meaning a birthdate abt 1717. It also reveals he was a widower and Prudence a widow.
5 years later he is a witness to Johns sisters wedding. Apparently this usually indicates a father or brother.
Lets do some math. If he was indeed the father to John & Sarah than John would have been born when Henry was 19 and Sarah would have been when he was 21.
One catch... who is Walter who is 4 years older than John that is mentioned on the Turner Tomb... I had always presumed him to be Johns brother? Lets leave him out for the time being.
Lets go back to Castle Church. Crystal has searched 1735 - 1755 and came up blank... we now have a date to go on. There may be a christening date for Henry Turner in 1717.
If Henry is their father then we have a possible wedding date based on the oldest child's birth. John was born 1738 and if Walter is a full brother he was born 1734.
If Henry is the father it also answers a few other things.
Regards, Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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Dozey_Joy
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 29
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Rob
Just to clear up a point. Of the three marriages you mention only one took place in Brewood - that of John and Ann. The other two took place at St Mary's in Stafford. It gets confusing when all the churches have the same name!
It looks like the Turners may have a connection to Stafford and it's probably also worth trying to find out more about Henry.
Joy
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Hi Joy
Yes that used to throw me. Almost every time I had to look up the church website to get the proper name. The Brewood Church is "St Mary & St Chad"
Sometimes I find it referred to as simply "St Marys" other times the full name and then to confuse things further it is also referred to as "St Chads" which is where I got it wrong when asking for that wrong information.
To answer your question.. Yes all three were married in the same church. Brewood!
Henry's second wife "Prudence Sutton" has me intrigued. I've been searching for information on her but can't find a Sutton family in Brewood at that time. The book "Turners of Lane End speaks of an unknown Mrs Turner who ran a Ladies School in Meir House (Longton). Her identity is unknown and could just be Prudence who would have been 70 when the advertisement was in the Staffordshire Advertiser newspaper.
Did you receive my PM with the details of how to enter the family tree to double check information on the Turners? I find myself there constantly trying to keep my head right. So please don't think it isn't confusing.
There is a lot of information I have received that isn't correct. So many sources have obtained the incorrect data and repeated it.
Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Joy... Again I must apologise to you.
After replying to your question last night I slept on it and have been checking the facts this morning.
On looking at things I find that the site Family Search was the first to report happenings in Brewood as "St Marys. Stafford".
Not knowing Staffordshire or English protocol where so many things are abbreviated I had accepted that this was simply an accepted abbreviation for "St Mary & St Chad. Staffordshire". The fact that Stafford actually had a church called St Mary and another called St Chad never occurred to me until recently when I sent you on that wrong search.
On re reading your post I now realise that both Sarah Turner and Henry Turner were married in St Marys in Stafford and not Brewood as I had read it.
Thank you Joy for highlighting my error. Stupid errors like this can make such a difference when trying to find the full story. 
Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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crystal lady
RootsChat Member
Posts: 232
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Joy and Rob
Just posting the results of my search last Saturday - apologies for delay but it has been a bad week. Anyway, I wasn't sure where to start so I checked the baptisms for Brewood that was mentioned to Joy from 1801 - 1831 and nothing that relates to your Turner family as I could see, so we can rule that one out. There are other Turner families there and plenty of baptisms form them but I could not see a link with yours. However, Rob, do you want me to email those to you as 'not related', you then have all the info if a link with them appears at a later date and it will save us going back again - I won't post them on here to avoid confusion. I have found this useful with my research - I copy all the names down down as I'm looking even if they don't appear to have any relevance at this stage and they come in useful for cross checking later on - especially if someone gives you a name and date with no other info, you can then rule it out?
Castle Church and St Chad's, Stafford both had a book of transcriptions on the shelf which I checked and came up with the following (not sure if you have these already):
Castle Church:
1656/7 4 Apr, Mary daughter of John & Mary turner - baptism
St Chads, Stafford:
1713 2 Feb, Johannes Turner & Sara Nichols - marriage
1796 6 Jan, Mary daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner - born & baptised
1796 8 Jan, Mary daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner (above) - infant burial
1797 26 Aug, Elizabeth daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner - baptism (born 12 Aug 1797)
1800 1 Jan, Rebecca daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth Turner - baptism
1802 14 Jan, Ann daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth - baptism
As no other info is given I'm not sure if they 'belong' to you or not but copied the details just in case - hope I'm not adding to the confusion!! I did not have time to check all of the transcriptions but could not see baptisms for William b 1762 or Henry b 1717.
Sadly that was all I managed in the few hours that were available but I have my list for next time! Rob, let me know if you want the 'not connected names' emailing and I'll send them over.
I also arranged for the Marriage Licence applications to be photocopied and they are now in the 'photocopying queue' and I will be contacted when they are ready for collection. Rob - can you email me your address so I can then post them out to you?
Sorry nothing positive this time but at least eliminated some areas.
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Ravenscroft-Nantwich/Birmingham, Beddows-Birmingham, Degg-Burslem/Birmingham, Felkin-Birmingham, Moreton/Morton-Hemsworth/Wellington/Staffs, Evans-Tipton, Richardson-Staffs
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Thanks Crystal for your weekend search. Even though it hasn't revealed any thing new it has certainly ruled out other things.
It appears that nothing else can be extracted from Brewood and your search of Castle Church has revealed a Turner which is about 3 generations earlier than my current earliest found Turner so I can't prove them to be related as there is nothing in between. Good for my general unknown list though.
St Chads has revealed the Johannes & Sarah 1713 that I sent Joy on the wrong trail for. I still feel I have plenty of egg on face for confusing the three churches ... Unfortunately the Thomas and Elizabeth information is all around 1800 which is too late in time to be brothers or parents of potter John. Again they will be stored in a "not related" list just in case they should pop up as cousins or similar.
The only other place left to search is St Mary's Stafford where both Henry and Sarah were married. It is the only obvious place left to look for the baptisms of John & Sarah .... possibly Walter could also be there (1731 - 1741 plus some more in case they were late)
Henry was born 1717 & as a widower married Prudence Sutton in 1757 in the church. He was from Castle Church parish and Crystals search of that parish revealed no baptisms so possibly no more children or they simply settled elsewhere. It also failed to find Henry's own Baptism.
If Henry is indeed potter Johns father then the only other place to search for Henry & Prudence after their marriage is in the Stoke on Trent area. They may have followed John after his success in potting and Prudence could be the unknown Mrs Turner of Meir house who ran the ladies school which would have made her 70 at the time. Pam found many baptisms of both sons children in St. John`s Church Lane End (Longton). It could be a fine place to start to look for children of Henry & Prudence as well as their deaths.
This leave me almost out of hunches or places to possibly look. If nothing more is found I feel that we might as well wind this search down and take a well earned rest.... Ahhhhhhh!
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Thanks for the PM Joy & yes I also find this Turner family intriguing especially since they are my ancestors.
I agree that obtaining both Henry's and his wifes wills will probably solve this but I don't know how to arrange it from here in Sydney especially since I don't have dates of passing. Sure I'd pick up the tab if it could be arranged.
Well a few weeks have passed and I've been quietly mulling things over. I was looking at Sarah Turners children and noticed that all the earlier ones were names of known family members and then "Mary Ann" struck me as a name of a family member that was unknown to me ... could this be her mothers name I'm thinking (sure the last born children have new names).
Potter Johns son William also has a daughter named Mary Ann (Pam was talking about her in an earlier message in this discussion).
So the question now being put is do we agree that there is a strong chance that Mary Ann is the name of Henrys first wife and mother to potter John and Sarah?
So with this I went searching in "Family Search" and came up almost blank when looking for a Henry Turner born abt 1717. I came up totally blank when searching for a marriage of Henry and Ann in a time frame that would fit. Everything was suggesting Henry was born 1707
So now I have to slip in another "if" ... From the turner tomb there is mention of Walter Turner which I had presumed was a brother but for this to be (according to his wedding licence) Henry would have only just been 17 if not 16 when he fathered Walter. I'm thinking not very likely.... Now here is the if ... what if Henry really was 50 and so he could marry he had to say 40 to not to upset the brides family. Now Walter fits in and now I can research what "Family search" has found.
The only thing relating to Stafford that might fit in is possible parents to Henry. We have a Marriage of John Turner to Sarah Taylor 18th Nov 1703 Wombourn, Stafford ... we have to look for their children & one called Henry in the Wombourn parish records .. A good indicator is if the marriage was by licence.
I'll post a look up request for the others that showed up in the respective places of Roots Chat.
Thanks for reading my rambling but it goes to show I'm really clutching at straws.
Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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It's amazing just what you think of when you get a little spare time.
The Baptisms of John Turners children were found in St Johns, Longton... All except the first born William. Apparently this was before St. Johns Church was finished but it also coincides with when potter John first set up in Lane End (Longton)
Reading up my info on potter John I find he "was established by 1756 in a partnership with R. Banks, making white stoneware, in a factory on the site of what is now Copeland-Spode, in Stoke upon Trent. He moved to Lane End in 1759. (1762 according to Jewitt)"
Since William was born in 1762 it is possible he was christened in a church close to what is now the Copeland Spode factory in Stoke. A quick look up reveals this factory to be in Church Street.
In fact the church could be the same as where Josia Spode himself is buried .... St. Peter Ad Vincula, Stoke.
Could somebody take a look for the birth/christening of William which I have as abt. 1762. (Parents John & Ann Turner)
I don't know of any other Turners that may be mentioned in any Stoke registers in this timeframe.
As always... no rush!
Thanks, Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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crystal lady
RootsChat Member
Posts: 232
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Rob and Joy
Hope you are both well.
I managed to get an hour at the records office yesterday and found a few Turner's but not sure if they are the ones you want Rob, so I will post them and you can ponder over them.
Wombourn, Stafford - marriage
John Turner & Sarah Taylor - 18 Nov 1703
Unfortunately it did not mention by licence or anything else for that matter! I checked the baptisms for Wombourn from 1701 to 1714 but have to admit defeat on these as they were very illegible and Lichfield does not have any transcriptions for them - don't know if Stafford have any?
I also checked the baptisms for St. Peters, Stoke from 1759 - 1770 and found the following:
1761 6 Dec, John son of John & Marg't Turner, Lane End.
1762 3 Mar, W'm son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke.
1764 22 Nov, Walter son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke.
Those were the only Turners within that time frame. I am also wondering if 'Marg't has been entered instead of 'Mary' or could be I am reading it wrong (the fiches were quite hard going and faint in places) - Joy, maybe you could have a look at that one and see what you think of it? A second pair of eyes is often the answer.
That was all I had time to check - let me know what you think
Best wishes
Crystal
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Ravenscroft-Nantwich/Birmingham, Beddows-Birmingham, Degg-Burslem/Birmingham, Felkin-Birmingham, Moreton/Morton-Hemsworth/Wellington/Staffs, Evans-Tipton, Richardson-Staffs
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Dozey_Joy
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 29
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Rob and Crystal
I managed another visit to Stafford last week.
With regards to the baptism at St Peters, Stoke in 1761 I agree with Crystal and it is Marg't. The transcript of the register agreed with us as well.
I asked about wills and at that time wills were proved by the church courts so any wills for Staffordshire should be at Lichfield as that's the diocese Staffordshire comes under. I was also told that as Henry described himself as a gentleman there is a good chance he left a will. As I said the wills themselves are at Lichfield although they do have a copy of the index at Stafford. I didn't have time to look at that.
I did look at the registers for St Marys, Stafford to see if I could find what happened to Henry and Prudence after their marriage and I found the following.
Baptisms
January 1759 Prudence daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner born 11 baptized 12
February 1760 Henry son of Henry and Prudence Turner born 8 baptized 9
April 1761 John son of Henry and Prudence Turner born 9 baptized 10
November 1762 Sarah daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner born 5 baptized 7
Burials
December 1762 Sarah daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner buried 19
August 1771 Henry Turner buried 13
So it looks as though they stayed in Stafford and that's where Henry died.
It also looks like Prudence remarried on the 15th April 1773 as there was a marriage for Prudence Turner,widow to a James Lander of Sandon. Also the daughter Prudence married a John Webb in 1775 and there's also a thomas Turner marrying a Sarah Sowker in 1771. All three marriages were by license. If you want the exact details from the register for the marriages let me know as I have got them.
I'm not sure where we go from here but I will let you know if I come up with any ideas.
Best Wishes
Joy
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Joy
Well those finds are very very interesting.
I've spent the last month working on another branch breakthrough and received Pam Inders chapter she has written on Mary Ann Turner. Admittedly I had put aside this particular line of research and I'm very appreciative of your efforts here on keeping it going.
I've spent an hour re-reading everything to simply get my head back into it. At first I was very excited because all the family names were appearing but looking into them the dates all appear to be one generation out.
If potter John Turner had a older brother named Henry then these could logically be his children but then again as his widower father Henry married the widow Prudence Sutton (which was found in St Marys Stafford 1757) then these would be the children of that marriage and potter Johns half brothers & sisters which appears to me the most likely situation. I'm just a little perplexed as to why the father Henry would name the children of his second wife the same names of his first wifes children.
Enough of this .... let me mull it over for a week or so to get it back in my head.
Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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Old-Bonez
RootsChat Member
Posts: 103
TURNER small jug. Popular for collectors c.1780
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Crystal
Having the chance now to look at it with a fresh mind I have noticed something. Your baptism find of 1762 & 1764 for William and Walter I had just realised that they were for John & Mary and not Ann. My head screams Ughhhhh!
The William fits into my family perfectly and there is a timeframe slot for the Walter whose name is also a family name listed on the Turner Tomb (not the same person though).
You had trouble on the 1761 find thinking it was Margaret but then agreeing that it wasn't. Could it be something like "MaryAnn" or a listing of both names with a symbol between meaning birth name?? (Sorry for the wild guess that needs to be asked of an expert).
hehehe... We are starting to get more puzzle pieces than are falling into place
Rob
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Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Harrison
London: Fountain,
England: Devonshire, Wingate,
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen
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