duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I wonder if Joseph Kemp was Charles Kemp's brother and possibly John Kemp's too. Their father being John Kemp? My minds spinning at the moment so maybe I should take a break and wait till I get to Archives. William Kemp born 1829 would appear to be Robert Kemp 1838s brother but I haven't confirmed it yet.
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Bronhill
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Duckweed....   Now I am confused! On looking at the censuses I found a George b 1776 married to a Ruth b 1781. it seemed they had a couple of sons- one a John b 1801 who married a Mary ( which I thought could be Mary Matthews )- then a George a shoemaker same as his father George. Younger George married an Emma b 1819-1865.
Mary appeared on an 1841 census with son Robert b 1838 who married Angelina ( son Arthur Kemp ) and daughter Emma b 1836.
It seemed that old George b 1776 may have had brother Joseph b 1778 ( unless a cousin perhaps)> Joseph married Mary Jarvis and thet had Malin 1809, Robert 1812 a farmer, Henry b 1818 a butcher, who married a Catherine 1825 about1848. They had Mary 1849, Walter 1852, and Ellen 1862 - perhaps more I don't know as didn't find any other censuses.
That's just how it seemed to fit to me but maybe it isn't quite on the mark and I have crossed my wires- gets a bit complex after a while.  Anyway.... will be interesting to see what the records reveal!
Chat soon.... there is a dust storm brewing here. Yet it is flooding on the north coast and Queensland with a third of the annual rainfall in less than a day!!!We aren't getting a drop! 
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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This site has been offline all morning. Anyway found that Rosedale and Tickhill both belonged to Duke of Norfolk who was also lord of the Manor of Sheffield too. Yes I know you'd think Norfolk would be in Norfolk but that's the aristocracy for you. The duke of Norfolks family name is Howard. Rosedale Abbey is next to Castle Howard. Arundel Castle another home of the Howards/Norfolks was restored by John Teasdale the Duke of Norfolk's Master Stone Mason. John Teasdale is also down as in Wellburn on the Castle Howard Estate as quarrying there. It does say John Teasdale comes from York. If our family of Teasdales were on Norfolk estates there could quite possibly be mentions of the family eg tenancy agreements, payroll, etc.. I believe the Estate records for the Norfolks are quite extensive. A lot of records were found in Arundel Castle and I know these records are available in Sheffield Archives so could be some interesting searching.
I agree the records are confusing about Kemps Jarvis etc.. which is why I want to look at marriage records in particular in the archive as well as working out where Joseph came from and his relationship to Robert. My brother said to me try and copy as much as possible as you never know when other information there becomes relevant. I'll try my best.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Well after 2 archives I think the Teasdales are a little clearer, the Jarvis family less clear and the Kemps are still confusing me. George Teasdale was a stableman at Tickhill Castle. I assume that is the estate with the castle in it because I don't think the castle would be used by then as most castles were decomissioned by Parliament after the Civil War. The marriage certifcate for Henry Jarvis is in an independent chapel in Bawtry. This may cause problems as its harder to get a look at dissenter churches. The burial record of George Teasdale's makes his birthdate as 1793. I don't know if this is just an error or the George Teasdale I have is the wrong one. I will have to investigate this further. I found I had the wrong father for Henry Jarvis as I now know his parents to be William and Mary. I couldn't find William and Mary's marriage in the register or William's birth so I'm going to have to do some more searching. I need to look at Maltby records for the Kemps. I couldn't find details of the Brightmore Teasdale marriage in Tickhill so will have to look in Sheffield and Catcliffe. Don't know what happened to George Teasdale junior either. There is a George about the right age in America. Could he have decided to try his luck in America? I noted the name Eliza Jarvis as a witness to Henry Jarvis and Ann Teasdales wedding. I didn't find any record of her birth in Tickhill so there's another person I have to find. There doesn't appear to be any Teasdales in the church register till Mary's birth in 1816 so it looks like they were the first to move there. There are many Teasdales in Sheffield though so they are not the first Teasdales in the area. I will have to look more closely at the Teasdales in Sheffield and see if I can find a connection.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I've had a lot of fun researching but I still haven't found for sure who Arthur Kemp is except that he is a genuine cousin as there are clear Jarvis/Kemp/Teasdale connections. Henry Jarvis's family is from Nottinghamshire. I don't know if the other Jarvis families are related. There are also Edwin and John Teasdale that I think are probably connected. In particular John Teasdale the saddler living in Bawtry, where Henry Jarvis married Anne Teasdale in 1848. A saddler is after a related occupation to a Stableman. There seems to be a number of leather working Teasdales dotted about the area. We seem to have 3 groups of workers, butchers/farmers/estate workers. (Henry Jarvis was also a groom ) leather workers, shoemakers saddlers, and 3rd stone masons. I think I will have to buy Arthur's birth certificate to establish parents. I wasn't going to before because I hadn't established he wasn't just a relative in name only. And where did Arthur go after his apprenticeship finished?
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I hope you got details of site I found about Tickhill Castle Farm. Apparently the Lumleys were fond of horse racing so George Teasdales job as Stableman makes him a man who would have to be better than the average as Tickhill was a major stud farm and he would be dealing with very valuable race horses. Of course Doncaster is not far away and races are still run there. If he broke horses he would be very important but still probably not paid a lot. I imagine they kept copious records about the stud and the employees.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Found a few more things now. Established that Arthur Kemp is Robert and Angelina Kemp's son Born 6th August 1872. Robert Kemp is not born in Rawmarsh but is in IGI parish records as baptised 24 Sept 1837 Tickhill, father Charles Kemp. Robert Jarvis Kemp is the child of Joseph Kemp and Mary Jarvis. I can't find details to establish whether Robert Kemp and Joseph Kemp are related
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Followed a hunch and found Charles Kemp as a valet to Richard G Lumley in London in 1841 and in Leicestershire with him in 1851. Charles is put as born 1798 in Thursby Nottinghamshire. No such place as Thursby but there is a stately home Thorseby Hall, Parish church Perlethorpe. Parish records do indeed show a Charles Kemp baptised 7th Dec 1797 to Robert and Ann Kemp. Robert and Ann are to be found in 1841 in Nottinghamshire in Edwinstowe (near Thoresby) as Kump. Charles sister Lucy Kemp turns up in London as servant to Lady Lowther. Charles Siblings were Lucy born 1813, Frances born abt 1812, Elisabeth baptised 6 Nov 1801, Ann Baptised 28 May 1804. Found marriage in parish records 17 Jul 1794 Perlethorpe Robert Kemp married Ann Flethcher. 1851 census when Ann is widowed shows Ann was born in 1769 in Perlethorpe. The 1841 census gives Robert Kemps birth year as 1761. It's not very clear to me if Robert was born in Nottinghamshire. The Lumleys Stately Home is Sandbech Park in Maltby.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I think Charles Kemp explains the link between Sarah Jaques and the Teasdales. Sarah Jacques worked in the same district Charles Kemps sister worked and where Charles Kemp visted with his master so I think you are probably right that there was some connection between the Teasdales and the Jaques before Australia. Who knows maybe George and sons came up with his Lumley masters to inspect a racehorse or collect one for the Tickhill Stud. Henry Jarvis also worked as a groom in Sheffield. The connecting themes seem to be in service for nobility and working with animals.
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Bronhill
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Duckweed,
Am glad you agrre with my line of thinking that they knew each other. I workedon the premise that in those days girls just did not go out with just anybody- but that most were family friends and connections. In some instances the parents set up suitors- when the daughter turned 20 0r 21 they would have someone in mind or invite contacts so they could meet potential beaus.
They would be either neighbours or good friends perhaps from a family of good character and reputation. Such as the fathers worked together at the same job.
What would be good is to find out more about the Jacques but it was even more common a name! Although they all perhaps may have originated from the one or two brothers who emigrated from France. I have seen a Jacques Genealogy Tree- a Louis who went to Canada and from whom a huge line of descendants stemmed but also a Robert and a Guillaume who fled to Scotland. I wouldsay they then moved down into north Yorkshire ( or even Ireland) from there.
Am not sure ???where to start looking for this lot as I have not been able to confirm births in the UK. Have evenless info on them from the family annuls than from the others. I did find on the Family Search website a birth record for Sarah b 1819 ( parents Robert and Sarah) plus one for a Robert although one had his birthdate as 1807 which couldn't be right as we have it as 1809 from records here which fits in with a marriage of a robert and Sarah nee Whitaker in 1808. However have drawn a blank with Charlotte, Thomas and William. William could be a cousin rather than brothers. I am guessing that William was born around 1810 or 1811 as he arrived with Robert in 1836 whereas Thomas arrived a couple of years later in 1838 with Sarah and Robert's wife. Had he been older he would have surely come out with the other men. I think at the time of arrival he was a teenager and therefore born about 1821 ( younger than Sarah). Also he was a bit later in marrying ( about 15 years after Robert and about 5 years after Sarah married William T.
I know definitely there was a Charlotte, ( name appears on marriage certificate); Robert b 1809, William, Sarah and Thomas ( also a witness at the marriage) . All came to Australia in 1836 and 1838.
Anyway, something might turn up.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I suspect the history of the Jaques is like the Kemps that is they didn't just come over at one time, some came over just after the Norman conquest to set up wauk mills (treating wool cloth) and introducing their weaving techniques. Others came over at the time of the hugenot purges (these would be early protestants). Many hugenots did go to Scotland where they would find sympathy and understanding. I know my family name Bullivant is given as a Hugenot name and like the Jaques there were many Bullivants in the Loire Valley and like the Kemps there were also those from Brugge and on the French side Amien and Picardy. I think there probably is the same history for all three families. They were probably all involved in cloth production. The Bullivants and Jaques are to be found early on in Leicester. Many moved up from there through Lincolnshire to Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, and Derbyshire. It's difficult to trace any family before 1837 but you could look for someone who is doing a one name study on the name Jaques. I think probably the first thing is to build up a picture of the Jaques in the London area. There is an American hugenot site (can't remember its address right now) but it may give you info on some hugenot Jaques. There is a Hugenot church in Spittalfields in London. I don't know if their parish records are available online. I registered with GeneaNet which is a French geneaology site and this has been good for finding out how the name Bullivant was distributed in France and the Lowlands. Worth having a look and it costs you nothing to register.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I've been doing some googling, trying to find out who would be at 25 Portman Square to employ Sarah Jaques. I found a letter in the archives from an E H Eyre to the Duke of Norfolk. The correspondent lived at 25 Portman Square in 1830s. The correspondent turned out to be Anthony Hardolph Eyre. His daughter Mary Leticia Eyre married the Earl of Manvers who owned land in Nottingham. In fact his daughter died at Thoresby Park in 1860 (where Charles Kemp was born) His other daughter Frances Julia Eyre married into the Vernon family who had connections to Sheffield and Nottinghamshire. Interesting don't you think?
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Bronhill
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Duckweed.... 8)Ahhhaaa the plot thickens!!! Me thinks there is possibly some connection here. I was just reading up about Lumley of Tickhill castle and the Earls of Scarborough. Richard George- son of Frederick Lumley Savile of Tickhill Castle. I would imagine Frederick would have been employer to both Charles Kemp and George Teasdale in the early 1800s. Frederick would have been their vintage- born 1788 and died 1837..... Richard was born1813-1884 so same vintage as William Teasdale.
The Lumleys go way back to mid 1600s and the first Richard was the 1st earl of Scarborough.
These Lumleys also had links with Lumley Castle at Durham, so am wodnering if ther Teasdales originated there?
I found another interesting article citing one of the Lumley connections Charles Lumley Hill, the son of Lady Frances Charlotte Arabella who was the daughter of Frederick Lumley and grandaughter of the 4th Earl of scarborough ...(she married Colonel Charles Hill colonel of the Hussars( . This Charles Lumley Hill ( b 1840 died 1909 at Esk Qld) emigrated to Australia and resided in SA at Port Augusta and later Queensland. He was born at Tickhill Castle- another link or mere co-incidence??
He was a grazier cattle breeder.This Charles emigrated in 1863 and had some experience on a station in SA the moved to Queensland where he became the manager of Northampton Downs. He was also a politician.In 1882 he sold his properties and returned to England but a yera later returned to Australia and once agaiin one a seat in parliament ( Qld) . Later he continued his cattle breeding as a grazier.
Perhaps they had connections here in Australia- would be interesting to know what enticed Charles to come to Australia and who he knew here that came from Tickhill other than our William?
Will investigate further
Interestingly, Charles Kemp Teasdale- son of William and Sarah Jacques, was born at Mt Remarkable South Australia 1858 but died in Cloncurry Queensland 1940
Bronnie
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Yes I believe Lumley Castle is theirs. I saw the article on Charles Lumley Hill and guessed he was related to the earl but hadn't followed it up. I don't know where the Kemp/Jarvis connection comes in if at all. Kemp in Tickhill goes a long way so although Charles may be connected it isn't necessarily true. The William Kemp who has Sarah Ann Jarvis in his household is Robert Kemp's brother or Charles Kemp's son.
To lay it out again William Matthews Rawmarsh 1768 (baptism records and census 1841 and 1851) had 2 daughters Hannah Matthews 1792 and Mary Matthews. Parish records confirm that Hannah married George Teasdale and Mary married Charles Kemp. Also have birth certificate for Robert Kemp which also confirms parents Charles Kemp (occupation Butler for Richard Lumley-Saville) and Mary Matthews. William Matthews is found with daughter Mary in both 1841 and 1851 census. Husband Charles is not present at either census as he is with his master, in 1841 he is in St James Place in London, and in 1851 he is at Belvoir Castle in Leicestershire which his master was visiting. We know from the 1851 census Charles was born in Thoresby and baptised at local church Perlethorpe (parish records).
Sarah Jaques was said to be servant at 25 Portman Square. Correspondence in Archive puts A H Eyre in that place about 1837. A H Eyre turns out to be Anthony Hardolph Eyre. His daughter Mary Leticia Eyre married the Earl of Manvers whose family home was Thoresby Park.
So there is definitely a connection between Charles Kemp and Sarah Jaques. We also know that George Teasdale apart from marrying Mary's sister was a stableman/horse breaker at Tickhill Castle Farm which was a stud farm for the Earl of Carlisle's race horses. So both Charles Kemp and George Teasdale were working for Richard Lumley-Saville and as they were also brother in laws obviously knew each other quite well. Charles sister Lucy was servant to Lady Lowther in Gloucester Square (not that far from Sarah Jaques) Was one of the Kemps a matchmaker for William? It really makes interesting reading doesn't it?
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Sorry I saw one part wasn't clear I meant the Joseph Kemp marrying Mary Jarvis. I don't know if that is connected to our Kemps and Jarvises. I certainly haven't found any connection for Joseph Kemp as he is born in Tickhill at the time when Charles and parents were in Thoresby. I don't know where Charles Kemps father comes from as the 1841 census was unclear as to whether he was from Nottinghamshire originally and he died before 1851 census. The only Mary Jarvis I have is too young and in any case her family was also in Nottinghamshire at the critical times so it might just be a strange coincidence.
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