Bronhill
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 19
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi Duckweed  Gosh it can be such a web of intrigue at times!!!
Am trying to process too much information!!! And if I step into another part of the family, find more links and intrigue!!!
Talk about getting bogged down. What I find most confusing at times is when they have the same name- for example I noted two Robert Kemps... one born 1812 and the other born 1838 who married Angelina.There were obviously also two or more Charles Kemps.
For example :The Robert 1812 who appeared on a census 1841 aged 29 had father Joseph b 1778 aged 63, Mary wife aged 61 b 1780; Malin aged 32 b 1809, Robert 1812 and Henry . 22 b 1818 ( a butcher).
( I noted than the name Malin appeared again in another census as a child of someone....and being such an unusual name must have had a connection but I didn't print if off or note it as I was trying not to stray to far and wide away from the task at hand and get bogged down. I can't recall what census it was now but when i join up again will have to take a look! I think from memory that this Malin listed above married as well and had kids in a later census even though in the 1841 census he was still residing with the parents! Maybe he married late.
This is very interesting about 25 Portman Square and Sarah Jacques as a servant. And just how she ( perhaps family) comes to be associated with Charles Kemp- although it makes sense that it could be by association through employment but I don't envisage a valet chatting up a female servant in those times???.
The notes that a cousin had in her file had her her being employed at 95 Gloucester Place, Portman Square. After all there were a few misprints. So, that could be an error or then again she may have worked in more than one place who knows.
I had a look yesterday at Portman Square area 1800s and it seems as you say, very upmarket where all the Earls and Barons lived- didn't hit on no 25 though.
I wasn't aware of the Charles Kemp not being on the 1841 census in St James Place London and 1851 in Belvoir castle. The only one I sighted him on- whatever that was as I didn't take much note given he wasn't linked at that time to Mary - but I do recall this Charles as as valet just no particulars.
It is always possible as well that there is a double link between Jarvises and Kemps- like an early one and a later one- has happened in some of my family here through marriages- siblings and the like .
More interesting is who was this Sarah Jacques if she is connected to Charles Kemp and how....and who was her family exactly and what connection did they have to the Kemps?? Where did she originate and whether her parents always resided London or came from Nottingham or somewhere.
The Thorseby Park sets a common place but now am wondering what the commonality is.. although if her parents married and lived in Marylebone and Charles was working in St James Place London in 1841, perhaps they had links through the people where they worked or perhaps Charles knew Sarah's father through his work or perhaps the Kemps in Thorseby had connections with the Earl of Manvers and his lot?
I found some Jacques in Leicester on censuses but none seemed to fit directly, although I thought at the time they could be possibly related- like cousins. Also one fellow I connected with thru Genes reunited some time , who resides near Sheffield ( Connisborough?) said it is possible but didn't have any info on a Sarah in his tree. He had a Sarah Whitaker ( brother James?? from whom he stems) in his lineage born abt the same time in relation to Sarah Whitaker ( who married a Robert Jacques Marylebone 1808) and supposedly had our Sarah).
Tis like a huge jigsaw.
Did you happen to find anything about the Kemps pre 1800 from Tickhill-George Kemp b 1781 and wife Ruth that turned up on the censuses- John b 1801, and Mary 1799. I didn't find too many Kemps born Tickhill prior to 1800 in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. I think I need to create some sort of summary sheet and any info I find re those with same name - to put it on it!!
If Charles Kemp was born Thorseby. I wonder if or how the Tickhill Kemps are linked other than through the Castle?
Kemps live in the same neighbourhood in Tickhill as George and Hannah Teasdale; Charles from Thorseby works at the Castle along with George T and, married to sister , Mary, of wife Hannah. Charles sister, Lucy Kemp also a servant to a Lady Lowther in Gloucester Square. Sarah Jacques would then know the daughter Mary Leticia Eyre, ( about the same age???)who is married to the Earl of Manvers as she is working for her father. This Earl comes from Thorseby Park..... so how well does he know the Kemps from Thoresby? How does Sarah meet William- son of George T? Thinking.......thinking...what have we got in common here......horses... groomsman.... valets.... servants... Earls and castles..... At the races? Perhaps The Ascot races??? What a venue ... Ahh pure supposition!!!
Am off to brew up and ponder all this- and mull it over!!!
Bronnie 
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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It is documented that the Kemp family first came to Tickhill in 1330 from belgium at the invitation of the lord of the manor to set up a cloth industry there so Kemp in Tickhill goes back a long way.
My thought was maybe Robert Jaques was in service like Charles Kemp but the only Robert Jaques and Sarah I could find were from Essex and in Yorkshire. Robert is down as a gamekeeper.
I have in marriage records for Marylebone a Robert Jacques married a Sarah Wittaker 20 June 1808. There is an IGI entry that puts Robert as born 1783 and Sarah as 1787 but as there is no evidence given for this assertion I will take this with a pinch of salt.
Has anyone got the marriage certificate for Sarah Jaques and William Teasdale? I'm not sure what was the practice in Australia in those days. Marriage certificates in Britain list father of bride and his occupation even if he isn't present.
It often states if the father is deceased at the time of marriage.
Charles Kemp and Mary Matthews were married 19 Jun 1821 in Tickhill.
I found 5 children in the Parish records
Ann 1822
Charles 1825
William 1827
Emma 1834
Robert 1837
Robert and Emma are in the 1841 census with mother and grandfather William Matthews. Some family trees have mixed up John and Mary Kemp with Charles and Mary Kemp because there is no husband present in 1841 and 1851 but I know I am correct because I have documents and parish records to back it up.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Been doing another sweep of the Scarborough/Lumley family in 1841 and found 2 members living in Portman Square, an Elderly Lady under name of Scarborough with a younger companion named Lumley. Number of house is uncertain. There is a 94 pencilled at the top left hand of the census sheet. I don't know what that refers to.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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The more I look the more complex it gets. There are several noble families intertwined by marriage and their lands are also intertwined. The Eyre family who married into the Manvers family had an estate called Grove. This is near Retford. The Manvers family estates are many and include a mine in Wath upon Dearne and others near Tickhill. Ordsall the birthplace of William Jarvis and Clarborough the birthplace of his wife are also part of Retford but originally De Busli land and hence connected to Tickhill and the Lumley Savilles. Manvers and the Duke of Portland and the Eyres are all connected by marriage. Likewise the Manvers the Savilles the Duke of Portland and the Duke of Norfolk are also interconnected by marriage. A lot of these connections started with Elisabeth of Hardwick who married well 4 times and became the righest woman in England. In order to become more powerful her children and her husbands children intermarried making in effect one family. De Busli was William the Conquerors righthand man. As a reward he was given huge tracts of land including the manor of Tickhill and Blyth. One of the Busli family became Sheriff of Scarborough. Along with lands De Busli owned were the royal lands and forests which De Busli held in Stewardship for the King. De Busli's family died out and the lands were redistributed amongst royal favourites who became these powerful families. The question is were our families generations of old family retainers or simply moving between these areas because the roads were better and travel easier?
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Here's what I found about the Kemps.
Charles Kemp born Perlethorpe Thoresby baptised 1797
other siblings
Elisabeth baptised 6 Nov 1801
Ann Baptised 24 May 1804
Martha Kemp 1808
Robert Kemp 1810
Lucy Kemp
Frances Kemp 1814
Parents Robert Kemp about 1761 (not Nottinghamshire) In 1841 census as Kump in Perlethorpe died July quarter 1847
Married to Ann Fletcher (Perlethorpe abt 1769 ) married Perlethorpe Church 17 July 1794
Perlethorpe is the estate village and church for Thoresby Hall so likely that anyone married or baptised there is related to estate workers.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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This is the Jarvis side.
Father of Henry Jarvis
William Jarvis baptised 17 Feb 1788 Ordsall near Retford Nottinghamshire
wife Mary Jarvis baptised 1784 Clarborough near Retford Nottinghamshire
married 16 May 1808 Ordsall Nottinghamshire
1st son William Jarvis born Oct 1808 Ordsall Notts (looks like they married in haste)
No others found in Ordsall.
Mary Jarvis baptised Tickhill 9th May 1823 (birthplace Stancil)
Henry Jarvis baptised Tickhill 7th May 1826.
William and Mary found in Scrooby in 1841 but no children with them
This is where I'm not sure of solid ground all the way through but from Parish baptismal records we have William and probably siblings
John 18th April 1783 Ordsall
George 23 Mar 1790 Ordsall
Martha 18 Mar 1798 Ordsall
Mary 13 Nov 1785 Ordsall
Ann 17 Jun 1792 Ordsall
Elisabeth 16 Apr 1781 Ordsall
Milly 15 Mar 1801 Ordsall
Sarah Jarvis 28 Oct 1795 Ordsall
No marriage recorded at Ordsall
IGI and family tree record marriage of William Jarvis and Ann Wheeler 18th Nov 1781 Nottingham St Mary's Church I'm not sure about this. It would mean they were married after first child born which is possible but then they went back to Nottingham to have 2nd child Sarah who was born in 1783 and died in 1784 at the same time as they were baptising John at Ordsall in 1783. I know its not far away but think there are 2
William and Ann couples (common enough name especially in the area) Of the 8 likely siblings I have only traced Milly so far who appears to have married a William Hirst on the 6th May 1822 in Ordsall and their first child William born in 1829 Armthorpe died in Doncaster in 1888. I haven't traced the rest yet though IGI is insisting they are in Nottingham I haven't found any other evidence. They may be right but I am a cynic when it comes to IGI. I need more proof.
So we need to know if a Jarvis from Ordsall went to Tickhill and had a daughter Mary who married Joseph Kemp.
Or that Robert Kemp father of Charles is related to Joseph Kemp. I think this means going further back in the Tickhill Parish records.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Sorry missed out Lucy Kemps records
20 April 1817 Perlethorpe
Anyway hope that clarifys things a bit.
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Sarah H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I am also looking at a Kemp family who were butchers in Sheffield and have looked at all your postings with great interest.
I have John Kemp b 1821 Sheffield son of John Kemp, butcher. I have tried to follow all the Kemps in Sheffield into the 1700s. As there are very few, the family lines are quite easy to follow but the family are definitely moving to and from Sheffield from elsewhere. I thought that perhaps they were not originally from Sheffield and that some lines moved there for work and were going back "home" to stay with relatives. I just hadn't worked out where "home" was. I think now it might be Tickhill. For example I can find no birth for the John Kemp who is supposedly the butcher. I wonder if you have found him for me, born in Tickhill in 1801?
I had got the marriage of Robert Kemp and Angelina Parkinson on 8 Nov 1858 in Cathedral St Peter, Sheffield. Had you noticed that, on the same day, in the same place, Emma Kemp married William Parkinson? - presumably this was two lots of siblings.
Anyway, you may want to look toward Sheffield if you find yourself missing any baptisms or marriages in the Kemp line in the 1700s. There are definitely some non-conformists too.
I would love to hear from you if you have any more information that could link our lines.
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks I hadn't seen the double marriage. I'm not sure where if at all my Kemps fit with yours because the ones that are the same date as your John Kemps are actually born on the Manvers estate in Nottinghamshire at Perlethorpe. However it does seem too much of a coincidence that both your Kemps and my Kemps are involved in Butchery. Have you tried looking at the Duke of Westmorland's estates and see if there is a connection through service to this family. I don't have any John Kemps in my family. Have you any Robert Kemps? I will have a closer look at my Tickhill notes. The Kemp family goes back centuries at Tickhill in any case as they were weavers brought over by De Busli in the 11th century but it also means the name crops up wherever there is a major cloth industry such as Nottingham.
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Sarah H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I have tried to map all the Sheffield Kemps and come up with two lines which, at present, don't connect. One has butchers and tailors (I guess this is mine) and the other has cutlers.
I think my line goes John 1821 (tailor) - John 1780 (butcher) - Thomas 1750 (butcher) m Mary Sylvester - John (tailor) m Mary Worrall (I have other Worral/Kemp links too).
The other line goes back to Robert (hardwareman) who had numerous cutlers as descendents (not surprising in Sheffield). This Robert is the correct age to either be father or elder brother to the eldest John above.
There are also more Roberts (and others) who I haven't managed to place yet as some are obviously marrying and being baptised away from Sheffield - but where? With the Tickhill connections you have found I am wondering if the connection could be there. From directories it would appear that there are Kemps in Tickhill who are drapers too - not a million miles from a tailor to a draper.
The same names and occupations seem to be running through both lots of Kemps so I am sure that there must be a link somewhere.
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Sarah H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Have now got a definite connection from the Tickhill Kemps to the Sheffield cutler Kemps. The Sheffield cutler's apprentice records show a John Kemp taken as an apprentice in 1785, son of John Kemp (shoemaker, deceased) of Tickhill, to master cutler David Lambert for a period of 9 years. This could mean John Kemp junior born in approx. 1773 (usually about 21 when apprenticeship finished).
There are also another two Kemps on the apprenticeship records that I can place as being part of my "cutler" Kemp line who were baptised in Sheffield.
Can you spot this chap on your records from Tickhill?
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Sarah H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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There is a member submission on the IGI for a John Kemp b 1773 father John, mother Mary in Tickhill. If this is correct (and I admit it may not be) I would say that the family is as follows:
John Kemp (shoemaker) m Mary Kelk 14 Nov 1766
Children:
Mary Kemp bap 11 Oct 1768
Samuel Kemp bap 27 Dec 1770
Daniel Kemp bap 27 Jan 1771
John Kemp bap 19 Mar 1773 (cutler's apprentice)
George Kemp 21 Aug 1775
Joseph Kemp bap 21 Aug 1778
It also makes the last two on here prime candidates for the entries in Baines Directory 1822: George Kemp, boot and shoemaker (as was his father) and Joseph Kemp, grocer, linen & woollen draper, hatter and hosier.
Pigots Directory in 1829 has John Kemp, Market Place, grocers and drapers - is this John junior (who first became a cutler)?
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duckweed
RootsChat Senior
Posts: 449
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Have you tried Sheffield Records online?
http://www.sheffieldrecordsonline.org.uk
Rotherham marriages have a John Kemp marry an Ann Allen 27 Mar 1749
also trade directory Sheffield 1791 J. Kemp Cutler
I've looked in my notes no John Kemp. I have a Joseph John Kemp born 1814 to Joseph and Mary Kemp in Tickhill . The person I am interested in is Robert Jarvis Kemp who was of Rotherham according to burial records but died in Tickhill in 1846 aged 34 Years. This is interesting because there is both Jarvis and Kemp in my family. Jarvis family owned several shops in Tickhill and Nottinghamshire. I think my Kemps will probably be linked to earlier Tickhill Kemps and the shop owning Jarvis's and I think yours will be too but its finding the link. I know a Jarvis married a Kemp. Think that's where Robert Jarvis Kemp comes from. I think he was born in Tickhill. You might try looking for Kemps in Rotherham and also Scrooby, Bawtry and Austerfield.
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Sarah H
RootsChat Extra
Posts: 5
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I think we have discovered the same people. I have had a lot of information from the website you mentioned too - very useful. I think that the Ann Allen marriage may be another generation earlier so I have a note of it.
I think Robert Jarvis Kemp b 1812 was son of Joseph Kemp and Mary Jarvis. He had siblings Malin 1809, Sarah 1811, Joseph 1814, William 1818, Henry 1819 and Edwin 1821. I think that Joseph senior's parents were the John Kemp and Mary Kelk I mentioned before. It was Joseph's brother, John, who was the Sheffield cutler but I think that he changed occupation and, by 1829, was back in Tickhill as a grocer/draper.
I cannot spot a link between this family and that of Charles Kemp who married Mary Matthews. These seem to be the butchers. Do you have one?
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