SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards Family History Local History

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SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards

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Topic: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards (Read 471 times)

hmserge
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 357

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« on: Thursday 20 November 08 09:57 UTC (UK) »

Hello,

Joseph Shaw (born around 1847 Halifax, Yorkshire) and his brother James Shaw (born around 1850 Halifax, Yorkshire) emigrated to Canada in 1903

They went on the Bavarian in June 1903 along with a friend called John Albert Drake (born around 1878). I have found this ship's record and it said their destination was Montreal, Canada. Their occupations were wire drawers.

Unfortunately both myself (and the help of a very kind lady on here) have tried to find records for Joseph and James in Canada from 1903 onwards, but without any luck. They seem to have just disappeared. Records for John Drake have been found from 1915 onwards (marriage, army and death). We cannot find anything in the 1911 census for any of the men.

Does anyone know where I could search or contact to try find out what happened to these men? Maybe they crossed the border to America, died soon after arriving, or even returned home. All I know is that there is no trace of them in the 1911 census.

This puzzle has been bothering me for a long time now and to finally find out what happened to Joseph and James would make my day.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thank you


« Last Edit: Thursday 20 November 08 14:14 UTC (UK) by hmserge »	Logged

Serjeant/ Sergeant/ Surgun/
Ipswich, Suffolk......
Shaw - Halifax area, (Ovenden, Northowram, Brighouse), Yorkshire......
Garratt - Crich/Belper/Ambergate, Derbyshire......
Smith - Crich/Derbyshire......
Elliott - Dewsbury, Yorkshire.....
Kay - Walton, Walton Hall, Yorkshire.....
Griffiths - East Dean, Gloucestershire.....

aghadowey
Global Moderator
RootsChat Marquessate

Posts: 13753

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 20 November 08 10:44 UTC (UK) »

Previous thread with more details of what's already been researched: www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,340380.msg2199663.html#msg2199663

Would be a good idea to read this before looking anywhere else or posting a reply to avoid duplication of effort and confusion.


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JDC
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 280

In the dog house again

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #2 on: Friday 21 November 08 05:05 UTC (UK) »

Good evening,

Perhaps these men went to western Canada. There is an 1906 census transcription for the western provinces available on www.automatedgenealogy.com you can try. In terms of the not being on the 1911 census, and censuses in general, there are people that either intentionally avoid them or are simply unavailble do to circumstance when the are taken. Unfortunately, the next federal one is the 1921 census and won't be available to us to check for a few years. I believe you may find provincial and county censuses that may also be available to look atand give you the info you are looking for. Also, some border crossing information is available too on ancestry. Hope this helps,

JDC


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Carpenter - B'ham Warwick, Cole - Devon, Langmaid - Cornwall & Hants, Rayment - Herts & Holt - ? England

hmserge
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 357

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #3 on: Friday 21 November 08 07:35 UTC (UK) »

Thank you for your help. This is much appreciated.

I will take a look at the 1906 census and the border crossing details.

I'm hoping that one day I can find out what happened to them.

Thanks again

Heidi


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J.A.M.
RootsChat Member

Posts: 168

Pte. Alexander McCalmont C.E.F. 1916

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #4 on: Monday 05 January 09 19:33 UTC (UK) »

Hello hmserge,

This may not amount to anything but where was John Drake in the information you found? If he was in the wire business it's likely the Shaw brothers were too. It's likely they stuck to what they knew as opposed to trying something new like farming. If they were city boys they'd stay away from the country life.

I would suggest you check Canadian wire manufacturers, especially Canada Wire. They had a factory on Stanley Street in Niagara Falls, Ontario.
I went to school with Billy & Gloria Shaw & I believe their father worked for that company. It would be logical that a son of one of your Shaw brothers would follow in the business.

You can ask the Niagara Falls Public Library to check the city directories. They may also be able to tell you where the employee records for Canada Wire are.

www.niagarafalls.ca

You can also check the local cemeteries on this site by clicking on genealogy.

As I said it's a long shot but probably better than no shot.

Good hunting.

J.A.M.


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Islandmagee, County Antrim, Ireland

hmserge
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 357

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #5 on: Monday 05 January 09 20:08 UTC (UK) »

Hi J.A.M.

Thank you so much for your reply.

I haven't given up hope on finding the Shaw brothers, even though I've not been sure which way to turn for the last few months.

I've had a feeling that they would have carried on their career as wire drawers, as it was what they knew best. They worked for their father in Yorkshire who had his own wire manufacturing business, and just about every man in the Shaw family was a wire drawer, and I think 3 had a wire manufacturing business.

I was thinking of trying to find wire manufactures in Canada around that time, but have had no idea where to start, as there must be so so many.

John Drake worked with the Shaw brothers at John Shaw & Sons (Brighouse) Limited, Yorkshire. He emigrated the same time as Joseph and James Shaw, probably to carry on his career.

Unfortunately (except for the details of the Bavarian in 1903), neither John Drake, Joseph or James appear in the Canadian 1911 census, which is very strange. The first details of John Drake appear later when he gets married and then goes in the Canadian army.

Thank you for giving me details of Canada Wire. This information is much appreciated. Do I get in touch with Niagara Falls Public Library direct to see if they have employee records for Canada Wire? As I presume Canada Wire has stopped trading, or maybe they still exist. Another Shaw in the wire business, that sounds good news

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and for the help/information.

Much appreciated.

Heidi


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JDC
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 280

In the dog house again

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #6 on: Monday 05 January 09 22:14 UTC (UK) »

Hi again HM,

If you have Ancestry.com, you may want to look at the 1910 and subsequent USA censuses for these ancestors. Lots of people moved back and forth across the borders - at Windsor, Buffalo, and Niagra Falls for instances. My grandfather was one of them that did this looking for gainful employment. He ended up returning, however some of the Canadians actually found employment and stayed in the States :-) There were many folks from across the Atlantic that used Canada as a stepping stone to the USA and visa versa. I'm not sure if there are any free websites that would have these American censuses available, but it is worth a google I would think. If that isn't an option for you, you can likely contact one of the major city libraries in the likely spots in the States and have the reference librarians do a search for you. Hoping this helps.

JDC


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Carpenter - B'ham Warwick, Cole - Devon, Langmaid - Cornwall & Hants, Rayment - Herts & Holt - ? England

hmserge
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 357

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #7 on: Monday 05 January 09 22:26 UTC (UK) »

Hi JDC,

Yes I have Ancestry.com (I've recently renewed my subscription), so I'll do that. I'll take a look at the 1910 etc censuses. I have been wondering whether they ventured into the States. I'm sure someone did a search for me a while back, but they couldn't find anything, but I'll check myself *fingers crossed*.

I find it hard to believe that all 3 men can 'disappear' from 1903 onwards, surely there must be some record of them somewhere. As John Drake did turn up after 1911 (I think it was 1912) when he got married in British Columbia.

Thank you for your help, this is much appreciated.


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JDC
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 280

In the dog house again

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #8 on: Monday 05 January 09 23:03 UTC (UK) »

Hi HM,

The BC goverment has a good searchable database for BMDs I think, but unfortunately can't locate site addy right now. Also, there is the BC cemetery finding aid at http://www.islandnet.com/bccfa/ you may want to check out if you think they may have ended up there. Also, if you are using ancestry, you may want to look at if any of these men were soldiers during the Great War (Canadian or British forces) as well. The options are expanding :-)

JDC


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Carpenter - B'ham Warwick, Cole - Devon, Langmaid - Cornwall & Hants, Rayment - Herts & Holt - ? England

kooran
RootsChat Member

Posts: 100

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 06 January 09 00:09 UTC (UK) »

There is a Joseph Shaw married to Sophie on the England 1891 Census at Brighouse, Yorkshire. Is this your Joseph Shaw? If so, there is a Joseph and Sophie Shaw in Assiniboine West, Saskatchewan in the Western Canada 1906 census.


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hmserge
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 357

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 06 January 09 07:08 UTC (UK) »

Hi JDC,

I had a quick look at ancestry.com last night (1910 and 1920 census), but unfortunately didn't see anything in the first few pages for any of the men, but it was only a quick look. I know John Drake ended up in BC from 1912 onwards, but have no idea where Joseph and James ended up still. I'll look into the cemetery finding, that's a good idea. Not sure whether Joseph or James would have ended up in the army, as they would probably have been in their 60's, but I suppose it's worth taking a look... so thank you again for the help

Hi kooran,

Yes Joseph was married when he lived in England to Sophia, and they did live in Brighouse, so that's definitely him. Unfortunately their marriage broke down, and Sophia moved to Blackpool to open a lodging house in the late 1900's. Joseph stayed in Halifax area then emigrated to Canada in 1903. I know for definite that Sophia stayed with the family in Blackpool, and never went to Canada.. so it's such a shame it isn't them, but thank you for searching for me, much appreciated. Cool


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JDC
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 280

In the dog house again

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 06 January 09 16:32 UTC (UK) »

Hi HM,

You are likely right about the brothers' participation in WWI. My g-granfather joined up and he was very close to 50 when he joined up in the service, so that is the reason I suggested it to you. They may hava also retuned to England?

I came across this in Ancestry and was wondering if this Sarah is liked to you ancestors - sister or wife? Undecided

Ontario, Canada Deaths, 1869-1934
about Sarah Ann Shaw
Name:    Sarah Ann Shaw
Death Date:    11 Nov 1930
Death Location:    York
Gender:    Female
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1846
Birth Location:    Halifax,Eng

The informant was James Shaw, son.

I found the immigration doc for the Shaw bros and the birth dates are abt 5yrs after the ones you have indicated. Guess they wanted to feel younger for thier friend Wink

Once again, hope this helps.

JDC


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Carpenter - B'ham Warwick, Cole - Devon, Langmaid - Cornwall & Hants, Rayment - Herts & Holt - ? England

hmserge
RootsChat Senior

Posts: 357

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Re: SHAW BROTHERS - Disappearance 1903 onwards
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 06 January 09 16:47 UTC (UK) »

Hi again JDC,

I will still look into them joining the army etc, as you never know. I've checked immigration records for them returning to England, but nothing has been found, I'm not having much luck really.

I noticed the birthdates too for the Shaw brothers, I think they wanted to feel that bit younger, like you say probably to compete with their friend lol. Grin

The Shaw brothers were born Halifax area, Yorkshire.

You've done well to find another Shaw name who was born in Halifax around the same time as the Shaw brothers. James was married to a Frances before he left for Canada (I don't know whether she died, or they split up, or whether she actually followed him later to Canada). They didn't have a sister (as far as I know) called Sarah Ann. There was a Martha Ann born 1857 but she married in England and her name then became Martha Cockcroft. This is all very intriguing though and very interesting

I might try to see if I can find a Sarah Ann Shaw born Halifax 1846 in any census records or try to find out when she emigrated to Canada. And the informant was James Shaw, son, very very interesting.

Thank you once again.

Heidi


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